Knights of Mayhem - did you watch?

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

Want to criticize? You have that right, but you might have a different take on it if you strapped up, saddled up and put your ass in the list. Different perspective than from the sidelines.

I said this about a month ago and started taking heat for being a Charlie fainboi.

I know and I figure that I will get hit with the same. Oh well, Tryst we've been there. You know as well as I do that there are people with Bigger Egos than Charlie's in our sport.

Oh hells yeah.

Hell, there are people with bigger egos on the Archive - its just that KOM has a show that puts it right in your face.

...and I get a real kick out of it when some of them post about what a tool Charlie is.

I am not saying that folks shouldn't criticize - I kinda agree with Charlie though that he is the face of jousting - somebody had to take over after I retired

At first (years ago) I thought he WAS you. Now I feel like he is tring to portray a cross between you and Roy Cox (on crack).

What I would like to see is an event that could be a real World Jousting Championship and at the same time have a World Buthurt Championship. I mean, BotN has been holding world championships with only 4 participating teams. Get REAL $$$$$$ SPONSORSHIP - get the best of the best in both worlds, get them in one place, market the hell out of it, put it on ESPN et al, and put a definitive stop to all the crap.

I had the highest hopes for a 'legitimate' league to come from "that other show" but the more I hear about it the more my hopes are fading. I am trying to be careful not to knock Charlie too much in public because it looks like he currently may have the best chance of taking jousting where the money is. ...and because AT LEAST HE HAS THE BALLS TO SUIT UP AND MOUNT UP, unlike most of the nattering nabobs of negativity...ooops there I go again.

[Livia Tasia]

Lloyd, I understand what you are saying. But how does it help the sport if jousting to have Charlies face on it? Now Shane absolutely. I'll never forget him taking the time to answer each one of our questions on a super hot day after his joust show.

I don't think you have to come across that way to help the sport.

But then again maybe I am wrong. That said did you watch last nights show? I can't figure out the points system. How could Charlie win when he hit that guy in the leg? Or do the points include hitting anywhere?

[Lloyd]

...and because AT LEAST HE HAS THE BALLS TO SUIT UP AND MOUNT UP, unlike most of the nattering nabobs of negativity...ooops there I go again.

DING, DING, DING

Wow, a cross between me and Roy - holy crap that is a scary idea

I've met Charlie in the past and he is not the dick that the show seems to be making him out. Hell, put a mike on me in the past while I was jousting, especially the "shiny spurs", and I am sure that I sounded a lot worse than him.

I do like the fact that they took headhunting out of the points. Northern Italian will rock your socks when the head is a legal, scoring target.

I'm not trying to knock anyone - but you have to take pretty much everything you see on tv, especially "reality" shows, with more than a grain of salt.
That being said, anyone wanting to learn this grandest of martial sports - give me a call! My rates are quite reasonable.

[Dougale MacAlestyr]

For liviatasia and anyone else interested in the topic, David Crouch has written a very readable history of the tournament, titled (appropriately) 'Tournament'

I've just read it again, and highly recommend it.

Gwen

It's a great read with wonderful plates in it, documenting armours and clothing of the era.

[Livia Tasia]

I've gone up against the quintain. LOL! I know that doesn't count. My poor horse has issues with other horses coming at him. I don't think he'd go for jousting. I was in a medieval times type of show where we did swordfighting on horseback and we did a charge toward and rider and crossed swords. The spastic Friesian spooked and ran straight into him. Couldn't get Solon to do that part of the show again.

[Lloyd]

Lloyd, I understand what you are saying. But how does it help the sport if jousting to have Charlies face on it? Now Shane absolutely. I'll never forget him taking the time to answer each one of our questions on a super hot day after his joust show.

I don't think you have to come across that way to help the sport.

But then again maybe I am wrong. That said did you watch last nights show? I can't figure out the points system. How could Charlie win when he hit that guy in the leg? Or do the points include hitting anywhere?

Watch the after show spots - Charlie and his team do the same thing. I always made sure that my knights, and horses, were available to the public immediately after a show.

How does it help? Let me be honest, I was the Biggest Skeptic on this when I heard it was coming out. I knew that the show would be skewed to show the worst in the jousters, not the best. That's the nature of the tv beast. In a lot of ways, I haven't enjoyed every segment of the shows. I really wish that they would get away from focusing on the injuries and the conflict. By now, everyone knows that we are badasses with limited vocabularies - let it go. I would love to see more of the training of the newbs and the horses. I used to tell my guys that 60% of the people that come to our shows were there just to watch the horses (20% were NASCAR-types, there for the unhorsings; 7% were "jousties"; and the remaining 3% were history buffs) and the people would actually come and watch the horses running around in circles for 30 minutes.

Charlie has done something that no one else has been able to - put a national spotlight on jousting as a sport. I think the show should be edited a bit to show more of the tremendous amount of training that we and the horses go through (hell, show the boring aspect of having to trailer your horses across country; feeding/watering and giving them attention - that is all just as important as a jouster getting knocked in the dirt) to give the viewers a greater understanding of what it REALLY takes to do this sport.

We all joust injured. I was on the other end of the infamous "Rod Injury". Rod and I were both jousting with broken hands (broken hands are relatively normal in the sport), our lances went tip-to-tip and both of them went into the opposing crotch. Rod nearly died and I am sure that if a filmcrew had been there that day, that would have been replayed OVER and OVER on news/sports programs.

Jousting is a beautiful sport to watch and to participate in. The skill and training it takes to consistently put a lance on a target that is less than 12" wide, while at a full gallop, while wearing restrictive armour and a vision-slot only 1/4" wide, is impossible to put into words. I love my sport. I have always believed that we could make it a mainstream sport (away from the Ren Faires). I don't think Charlie is ruining our chance, anymore than I think Shane's show will, I think that it is finally getting a chance.

[Livia Tasia]

Thanks, appreciate your input.

[MJBlazek]

No one eer said what he does is easy, and yes he should get credit for jsut doing it.
That doesn't mean he has to be a prick.

Hey Iwork in Customer Service...how many of you have the BALLS TO DO THAT?

[Lloyd]

HEY!! That's a low blow!
Why yes...I suppose it is.
It's kewl. That still scores in Charlie's league apparently...if you're Charlie.
But it's ok, because he has to win every purse for the sake of the Sport.

Yep, that was definitely a low shot. DJ, the MC, was one of my knights back in the Knights of Gloriana days and he was with us with the King's Champions - maybe he just needs glasses???

If you are going to talk about that: the "headshot" that Patrick gave Charlie in the previous show (and got ZERO points for) was actually a double tap off of the grande gard. It hit just above the grids and then went up into the helm. I would have given him the points for that one.

[Livia Tasia]

Patrick has had a lot of good shots that didn't seem to count.

[Lloyd]

No one eer said what he does is easy, and yes he should get credit for jsut doing it.
That doesn't mean he has to be a prick.

Hey Iwork in Customer Service...how many of you have the BALLS TO DO THAT?

Not ME! I would rather spend my time mucking out stalls and training stallions that want to bite me and break my legs before I would ever take a job like that!

MJ, I really think that it is just the way that he is being edited. Does he have a big ego? Hell yes! It takes a seriously big ego to try this - you have to really think a lot of yourself to even think that you can do it. I always told my guys that I wouldn't yell unless a horse, or someone, could get hurt or killed - didn't stop me from cussing like a sailor (which I am allowed, as a proud Navy Vet), questioning their pedigree or their manhood from time-to-time. If I had been miked, I am sure that the whole world would think that I am a prick as well.

[Lloyd]

Patrick has had a lot of good shots that didn't seem to count.

+1

Then, again, it is Pat......

[Livia Tasia]

Patricks not a good guy?

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

No one eer said what he does is easy, and yes he should get credit for jsut doing it.
That doesn't mean he has to be a prick.

There have been 'Charlies' at every level of medieval combat sport I have tried over the last 30 or so years. It was 'Charlies' that helped me decide to step off The Path. I expect to see 'him' every time I put my harness in the truck, no matter which harness. His attitude doesn't really even phase me much anymore...it just helps motivate me to be more violent with my violence. So far I've had two different people call me up and ask me to "joust his fucking face off, please".

I am just watching the show to get a feel for the competitors and to nit pick the technique (or lack thereof) and see how the other half lives...and because watching even bad jousting is still more fun (to me) than watching 99% of the other shite on television.

[Therion]

(20% were NASCAR-types, there for the unhorsings; 7% were "jousties"; and the remaining 3% were history buffs)

WE ARE THE 3%

#OCCUPYJOUSTING

[Lloyd]

(20% were NASCAR-types, there for the unhorsings; 7% were "jousties"; and the remaining 3% were history buffs)

WE ARE THE 3%

#OCCUPYJOUSTING

Oh Great, now I've started something else....

Tryst, right there with you Brother!

[Lloyd]

Patricks not a good guy?

I've known Pat for 20 years and I was there the day he got hired at Medieval Times in Chicago and started his long, twisting (looping, circling, etc.) road to tv stardom. Pat is Pat. You can love the guy one minute, hate him the next. He's like your little brother and gum on the bottom of your shoe at the same time. Does that make any sense?

The majority of the kit he jousts in used to be mine (I think its still there under all the black paint). The helm/breastplate were made by William Hurt, Age of Armour, and alot of the rest of the kit by John Gruber.

[Livia Tasia]

KoM answered my question about Charlie winning last night and it was an editing issue.

If you hit someone in the leg or crotch I don't get how editing would change that.

[Count Johnathan]

Loyd, I didn't say I saw them abuse the animals. Thier attitudes about the animals however was pretty much treating them as farm equipment. Half of Jousting is the horses and I would have appreciated a bit more focus on the animals who are also being put to hazard with the intense style of smash up derby jousting that they are doing.

And yes I do have the right to be critical like anyone else. Their attitudes suck and they aren't doing anything that will make the sport more respectable. More mainstream perhaps for now but all it will take is for one single horse to get lanced in the head for them to be shut down. They are hardcore for sure but careless in their approach and no I won't be watching any longer. I didn't say anything about the "historical" aspects. That isn't my problem with it. The show sucks just like their attitudes.

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

KoM answered my question about Charlie winning last night and it was an editing issue.

If you hit someone in the leg or crotch I don't get how editing would change that.

Editing issue?
As in: they forgot to edit that part out?

[Livia Tasia]

Their exact words was it was an 'editing oversight'.

So maybe you are right Trystyn.

http://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/?__user=6 ... =jewel%3D2

[Lloyd]

Loyd, I didn't say I saw them abuse the animals. Thier attitudes about the animals however was pretty much treating them as farm equipment. Half of Jousting is the horses and I would have appreciated a bit more focus on the animals who are also being put to hazard with the intense style of smash up derby jousting that they are doing.

And yes I do have the right to be critical like anyone else. Their attitudes suck and they aren't doing anything that will make the sport more respectable. More mainstream perhaps for now but all it will take is for one single horse to get lanced in the head for them to be shut down. They are hardcore for sure but careless in their approach and no I won't be watching any longer. I didn't say anything about the "historical" aspects. That isn't my problem with it. The show sucks just like their attitudes.

Hi Jonathan,

I wasn't just responding to you and I apologize that I didn't make that clear - mea culpa. I would love to see them show more of the "off" time with the horses. Trust me, I don't know of a jouster out there that thinks of their horses as farm equipment (and I live in Amish country, so I have run into that mindset many times). This is the only team-individual sport that I know of. Unfortunately, that doesn't sell on tv, I guess.

There ONE major axiom in the joust world - we can get hurt, the horses can't. Everyone lives by that code.

I am not a fan of the way the show is being edited. I know what Pat's and Charlie's sunglasses look like by now, Pat's red/black truck, the tires on the road, on and on ad naseum. I would much prefer to see them training the guys and the horses, spending time backstage NOT fighting or backbiting, and would really like to find out why they put their health on the line to do this sport. I know why I do it, but I am relatively sure that it wouldn't make "good" tv. I would also like them to show the separation between "show" and "sport" - but, again, it is probably a ratings downer.

[Count Johnathan]

I am sure most of it is editing out what the network considers boring and I agree I have met very few Equestrians who didn't put their horse above all else in their lives.

I think half of the issue is a poor presentation for the sport. The other half of the problem is Charlie is pretty much a dick. He constantly looks at the camera and tells everyone who doesn't joust that they are basically pathetic lifeforms and he is some amazing athlete that we should all think highly of. That doesn't do much to make people appreciate what he actually is doing. I am sure he has a world of stress on his shoulders trying to compete, run the show, and keep his organization running. He just doesn't have to be such a prick is all.

[Lloyd]

In the end, I would really like it if we jousters could just get along well enough to move the sport forward. You don't have to step on people to get ahead and you don't have to be a prick to be respected.

On a happier note: I've got books for sale! viewtopic.php?f=3&t=142398

[Kaliban]

Come on Lloyd you know people in hell want Milkshakes

[miscreant]

Packaging. It all boils down to packaging. The media has formed and molded a majority of it's viewer's mindset to think that the "reality show" concept is entertainment. Entertainment = $$$$ for them. Though so, so few people are aware of what the history of the sport or 'way of life' really was like (as we are spoiled here on the AA since their are many people aware of all of this and are experts themselves and we sometimes tend to take for granted that not everyone in the world outside of our little forum world is as knowledgeable as many here are) I say to Charlie and company, Go For It! I have a very hard time watching it, but since no other form of jousting media has taken hold outside of the Ren Faires and dinner theaters and smaller venue jousting events, I think we should support it. We may not like it, but take this tree trunk and use it to branch out to where you want it. This slowly growing seed is not breaking through the hard earth, but it's just the trunk. There are many branches to fill and by using this spring board, take those people who are genuinely interested and teach them how it really was. It's gotta start somewhere and Charlie had the balls to try it on the larger populous. Let him be the plow on the to break the dirt and all you other cats out there pick up his pieces and grow it to where you want it.

Damn, you wouldn't guess that I'm in agriculture with all those earthy references now, would you?

[Syrfinn]

HEY!! That's a low blow!
Why yes...I suppose it is.
It's kewl. That still scores in Charlie's league apparently...if you're Charlie.
But it's ok, because he has to win every purse for the sake of the Sport.

Yep, that was definitely a low shot. DJ, the MC, was one of my knights back in the Knights of Gloriana days and he was with us with the King's Champions - maybe he just needs glasses???

If you are going to talk about that: the "headshot" that Patrick gave Charlie in the previous show (and got ZERO points for) was actually a double tap off of the grande gard. It hit just above the grids and then went up into the helm. I would have given him the points for that one.

Actually meant to say something last week on that. I was curious why Patrick didnt get points. Wasnt sure if it had to be in the grid section or just the shield part.

I like the show, do the attitudes grate on me, yeah, but so do the attitudes on Ultimate Fighter and such, but I still love watching the sport.

I might not of said it on this post, but I said it on my Facebook page. Charlie might be how is portrayed in the show, but I seriously doubt its that over the top. But he has seen how Pro Wrestling is, as MMA, and well that stuff sells to the public. And if thats what it takes to get Jousting to TV, well so be it.

Do I wish the guys would dress better, as well as the horses. Yep, plus I would like to see the better lances, like Jeff and some of you use. But then I started to think how many lances you guys go thru a show, and not sure the cost at this time.

I would love to see them show a bit more of Joe's training, since he has had no real horse experience. Would be interesting.

My main hope, is KOM has their show, but if it spawns major interest from other networks for the other shows in the works, then all the better.

[Black Swan Designs]

I don't believe miscreant and the others who think KoM will open doors are correct. What's going to happen is Charlie's way will become the accepted way jousting is done. It's already happened- in the CBS Morning spot TotP was called 'jousting light', and Charlie was 'raw jousting'. KoM have already established a baseline against which everything else is and will be judged.

TV is all about selling advertising, not the quality of the programming. Whether you tune in to throw bricks or because you love it, you're still tuning in, and that's all advertisers care about. They're not there to make you a better person, they are there to sell you their product. The more talk there is (good or bad, doesn't matter), the more exposure the show gets, and the more justified the advertisers will be in dumping money into the show, which is more incentive to produce more shows. When that show is popular, they'll do another similar one to ride the advertising wave.

So, unless I am completely off base, what you're going to see is more 'heavy armour' jousting shows.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I consider anyone who finds US FIRST a friend and fellow student of the period. We are all students, and that's all we are. We pay tribute. This show will do nothing but bring morons, rednecks, deep-tanned douchebags and other undesirable narcissistic maniacs to our subculture- NON-READING, unlearned narcissistic maniacs. We have enough trouble with the well-informed narcissistic douchebags that are part of our world- do we need people whose interest was sparked only by the desire for petty, trailer-park fame? IMO mixed martial arts fucked up our subculture pretty badly. When it really got crazy I thought I would have to intervene or get involved somehow just to keep it from being too based upon *modern social mores*, but I was called out in a hot second for that BS. I don't want modern ideas to completely overtake what most of us are trying to do- pay some decent tribute to the REAL knights of the middle ages. I hope this makes sense.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

And I know that Jeff and Toby will not let themselves be made to look like idiots. Jeff isn't everyone's cup of tea but at least he isn't a buffoon who looks like he should be at the local ren-fair selling bad wall hanger swords to morons.

[Black Swan Designs]

NatGeo came to us first with this idea for a jousting show in January of 2010, because they had read the NYTimes story. They passed Jeff, Toby, Dom, et al over for Charlie, because Jeff, Toby, Dom, et al were too nerdy- they simply were not interesting enough. Charlie was the 'personality' they were looking for. Jeff followed up 6 months later and was told they were not interested in talking to anyone else, that the show was about Charlie, not jousting per se. They were not looking to give equal time to anyone else.

A month ago a promo company contacted Jeff several times about gigs to promote Charlie's show. Their selling point about why they wanted him was because 'everyone says you're the best!'. I didn't know whether to laugh or vomit.

I think the die has been cast, and Charlie (and soon Shane) are going to be the faces of jousting in the US. I think anyone who wants to do something other than 'Heavy Metal' jousting is going to have to go to Europe, Jeff included.

[a'Plaisance, Ltd.]

When it comes to Charlie pushing your buttons you have 3 choices:
1.) ignore him
2.) bitch about him
3.) try to affect a change

I've tried #1, certainly done #2 and, after spending time with him this weekend talking business, found that I seem to have some influence with #3.....so that's what I'm trying to focus on these days.

Btw, thanks for the shout out Lloyd. Hope you can make it next year!

[a'Plaisance, Ltd.]

I think anyone who wants to do something other than 'Heavy Metal' jousting is going to have to go to Europe, Jeff included.

Not at all.

Lysts on the Lake is now the largest competitive jousting tournament in the world and will be even larger in 2012...and it is certainly not a "heavy metal" jousting event. It is affiliated with the IJL just like many other events in North America.

[Lloyd]

When it comes to Charlie pushing your buttons you have 3 choices:
1.) ignore him
2.) bitch about him
3.) try to affect a change

I've tried #1, certainly done #2 and, after spending time with him this weekend talking business, found that I seem to have some influence with #3.....so that's what I'm trying to focus on these days.

Btw, thanks for the shout out Lloyd. Hope you can make it next year!

I'll be looking for my invite

AND, to try and lighten the mood somewhat - Shane is Canadian, so he can't be the face of US jousting until he becomes a naturalized citizen

[Mike England]

Steve put together a great event on a awesome site. I encourage everyone to check it out next year.