Weapon chains and the SCA

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

I've seen a number of images and effigies of 14th century knights with chains attached to the pommel of their weapon which leads to a loop on their chest armor.

I've asked a few people and gone through the armor standards and cannot find a single rule that prohibits the usage of this kind of lanyard. I feel like there is a rule I am overlooking somewhere that would make this illegal, or I would have seen someone do it by now.

Can anyone tell me if there is a reason this would be illegal in the SCA or just plain a bad idea?

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

Off the top of my head is limb-binding and loose chain being an issue. But if this were a major issue I can't imagine that they would have applied the practice in period either.

This may require testing...

[Sasha_Khan]

The subject has come up here before. While I did not use actual chain, I have used an equivalent - finger-crocheted cord that ran from the pommel of my secondary, to a ring on a leather baldric.

I used this for war and melee fighting for 5 or 6 years with no problems whatsoever.

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

Do you think a light, fine chain would be significantly different from the crocheted cord?

[Aelric]

I did it for a while and it never got in my way. I used 14g 3/8 butted chain maille links so it would be breakaway if really strained.

Aelric

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

I did it for a while and it never got in my way. I used 14g 3/8 butted chain maille links so it would be breakaway if really strained.

Aelric

And the chain was strong enough to support the weight of the sword if dropped?

EDIT: Thought about it for second, a few pounds of weight on a 14g butted chain, yeah it would be fine.

[Milan H]

I plan on doing this on my next set of body armor. It will have nice chain in between, with break away connections on either end to prevent someone from getting truly tangled, but strong enough not to fail if I throw my weapon accidentally. They will likely be removable as well, getting put on for when I'm feeling fancy.

Cheers,

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

I was talking about this with a friend today and he suggested a chest plate with an embossed frontal view of an elephant, with the chains extending from his tusks. I think this just went to the top of my projects list.

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

I plan on doing this on my next set of body armor. It will have nice chain in between, with break away connections on either end to prevent someone from getting truly tangled, but strong enough not to fail if I throw my weapon accidentally. They will likely be removable as well, getting put on for when I'm feeling fancy.

Cheers,

Hmmmm...

How did you plan on constructing the breakaway connections?

[Sasha_Khan]

What I found was that putting the anchor point as close to the armpit as possible, and NOT having much slack in the tether meant that I had very little chance of being tangled, since the tether would lay alongside my arm.

[losthelm]

I have done weak link break aways in the past by useing either smaller guage wire for a few links or alternative materials, aluminum works well for steel chains, often pulling apart before to much strain its put on a neck for fealty chains though it can take a while to find it in the grass at Pennsic.

[Ingelri]

How about some really strong magnets at the end of the chain? Of course this won't work if you have stainless body armour.

Ingelri

[Galvyn Lockhart]

I think that if you would build in a "fail point" in your chain, it would be safer to have it built in closer to the weapon end than the armour end. I just had a vision where someone has a 2 ft. length chain flailing around after their sword. Not likely, but a remote possibility.

[Sean Powell]

I plan on doing this on my next set of body armor. It will have nice chain in between, with break away connections on either end to prevent someone from getting truly tangled, but strong enough not to fail if I throw my weapon accidentally. They will likely be removable as well, getting put on for when I'm feeling fancy.

Cheers,

Hmmmm...

How did you plan on constructing the breakaway connections?

As a thought: If you want an easy break-away point use a clevis pin (often mistakenly called a cotter-pin but clevis pins go in cotter pins) bend them around the chain end then stick them through the hole in the chest plate and bend the edges outward. The pins can be shortened for convenience so they don't have as much material on the inside.

2nd possible choice is a small slot in the armor. Then slide a tooth-pick through and tape it to keep it from shifting. too much tension and the toothpick snaps. Pretty simple to find a match-stick, twig etc to replace the toothpick if it breaks while fighting.

No ideas for break-away connections on the weapon end though. Let me think.

Sean

[raito]

If it breaks away, it's not a lanyard.

[RoaK]

If it breaks away, it's not a lanyard.

Depends how much force you need to break the chain... a lanyard only keeps the weapon from flying away if you lose grip of it... the chain should be able to do that and only break if something pulls on it harder than just a free weapon swinging around.

I'd use a heavy rubber band for one of the links (probably in the middle of the chain).

[Sean Powell]

If it breaks away, it's not a lanyard.

There are people who having suffered badly while at the bottom of a dead-pile or heard stories about suffering badly at the bottom of a dead-pile who either 'forget' to loop on their lanyards or make lanyards that are designed to break.

There is a time and a place for lanyards: 100+ cub-scouts all sneaking under the list ropes for a better view and fightinging singles, you betcha you don't want a stray shot to the wrist to numb your arm and cause the weapon to fly. 100+ other fighters in a field with CA and Siege so even the marshals are armored and the crowd is either a distance away or behind a net, yeah not so much... but we inspect for them anyway because they are in the rules.

Having the option of a break away cord to prevent strangulation, tripping or some other hoekey wierd shit seems like a reasonable precaution that is not too hard to achieve. Most of the above plans can be tweaked so that they are safe and unbreakable in the correct circumstances but asfe and breakable in the others.

Sean

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

My main concern going into this was that the chain would almost immediately tangle around my limb or the limb of my opponent, but it sounds like that really just doesn't happen.

[Milan H]

Well, its all been thought so far and no testing to see how strong things would be, but I was likely just going to use an appropriately sized butted metal ring. Probably aluminum or brass, with the gauge sized appropriately to break away as needed. The other option was a riveted ring, but instead of a steel rivet, use something with much lower shear strength so it will fail as needed. Whatever it is, it will be easily removed and replaced on the side of the field in case it gets ripped off and so I can remove it when its not necessary. Aesthetics will play into the design as well, if for example the aluminum ring had to be really thick, I would change materials to something that looked nicer.

Cheers,

[Latheaxe]

I am just in the process of fitting chains from my COP to my sword and dagger..I was under the impression the reason for having the chains attached to weapons was to stop you losing them in battle if dropped..What do you want break away chains for??? defeating the object I think...

[Sasha_Khan]

I am just in the process of fitting chains from my COP to my sword and dagger..I was under the impression the reason for having the chains attached to weapons was to stop you losing them in battle if dropped..What do you want break away chains for??? defeating the object I think...

That was exactly my thought.

Since my 'chain' was set up the way it was, even if I dropped my secondary, it wasn't going to be a tripping hazard for anyone but me.

I think that it's the standard SCA practice of overthinking a simple thing...

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

I am just in the process of fitting chains from my COP to my sword and dagger..I was under the impression the reason for having the chains attached to weapons was to stop you losing them in battle if dropped..What do you want break away chains for??? defeating the object I think...

That was exactly my thought.

Since my 'chain' was set up the way it was, even if I dropped my secondary, it wasn't going to be a tripping hazard for anyone but me.

I think that it's the standard SCA practice of overthinking a simple thing...

Something I am most assuredly guilty of on a regular basis. Today I spent an hour measuring the width of my forearm in armor for a shield strap before realizing I could just put a buckle on the strap.

[MJBlazek]

Friedrich from the Priory of St. Colin the Dude has used chains before. I don't think they were break away.

[Cassius the Rabbit]

IMO the chain doesnt need to be any longer than your chest to your fingertips. If you are using it for a lanyard you dont want it to hit the ground if you dropped it. It should not matter what material it is made of if you are not attacking with it. You may have to be concious of how it moves when you fight so you or your opponent do not get tangled in it but as long as they are not overly excessive in length that shouldnt happen much.

[Milan H]

Truthfully, the break away chain is a marshal pleaser IMO. I don't think its necessary, but I am tired of being told I can't do something because its different. So instead, I will have a "safety" built in to keep the knee jerk reactions at bay.... Think about how often we see it here over things like plastidip, shrink tube and glue. Let alone a chain getting swung around with the weapon...

Cheers,

[Sasha_Khan]

Truthfully, the break away chain is a marshal pleaser IMO. I

Yeah, it will be a 'marshall pleaser' until they figure out that your lanyard ISN'T a lanyard

I had that very same discussion with a (clueless) senior marshall - until I pointed out that a breakaway lanyard wouldn't provide the safety factor required if I let go of the sword...

[boomer]

If i met someone with a chain from their armour to their weapon i would ask a marshal if it was safe. no matter how short the chain was. If I get up close and personnel with said fighter (belly fighting) i would be afraid of getting hit with the chain or it fouling my weapon or possibly getting tangled in it. Or else a person could use it to their advantage (if it is a break away) swing for the chain if it breaks away the fighter is out because a swinging chain from the armour or the weapon is a safety hazard. Just my 2 cents

[Destichado]

You're awesome.

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

You're awesome.

[Destichado]

That was sarcasm.

Actually it was sardonic, but there's no good meme for sardonicism.

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

That was sarcasm.

Actually it was sardonic, but there's no good meme for sardonicism.

Nor is there any way to accurately direct sardonicism in an open forum. I don't even know who you were mocking.

[raito]

If it breaks away, it's not a lanyard.

Depends how much force you need to break the chain... a lanyard only keeps the weapon from flying away if you lose grip of it... the chain should be able to do that and only break if something pulls on it harder than just a free weapon swinging around.

I'd use a heavy rubber band for one of the links (probably in the middle of the chain).

I get your point, except that there is no assurance that the lanyard is breaking because the weapon has left your hand. In other words, as soon as the chain breaks, it is no longer a lanyard. It seems likely that the chain breaks for reasons unrelated to dropping the weapon, like the chain being struck. If the chain is struck and breaks, it is no longer effective as a lanyard.


As for getting tangled, it does happen rarely that my lanyards get tangled in something (usually the opponent's weapon).

[Milan H]

To hell with it... I'm making mine rock frigging solid, and if anyone bitches, I will tell them to find me the rule saying lanyards can't be attached to the breastplate. Then kindly remind them they are free with their honor protected to forfeit the fight because they are uncomfortable facing non standard, but legal equipment.

[Sasha_Khan]

To hell with it... I'm making mine rock frigging solid, and if anyone bitches, I will tell them to find me the rule saying lanyards can't be attached to the breastplate. Then kindly remind them they are free with their honor protected to forfeit the fight because they are uncomfortable facing non standard, but legal equipment.

Woohoo! I think this would be the way to go - I know that I used this when I used my rig in a tourney (glaive with buckler and a secondary short sword) and I had an opponent (who was a known cheese weasel) pull the same thing on me, because he was 'afraid of the lanyard'.

He decided to fight, and I won the bout - and did so by stabbing him in the face, and with the secondary (about a dozen times )

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

To hell with it... I'm making mine rock frigging solid, and if anyone bitches, I will tell them to find me the rule saying lanyards can't be attached to the breastplate. Then kindly remind them they are free with their honor protected to forfeit the fight because they are uncomfortable facing non standard, but legal equipment.

After talking about this in a few different forums and with a number of people locally, I'm of the same opinion. No matter what concerns people might have, it is NOT illegal, it is simply a period version of something all fighters are required to have for certain weapons. If they are scared of my safety gear well... as you say, they are free with their honor protected to forfeit the fight on account of my terrifying safety equipment.