Chapel de fer ideas for combat archery?

[Ironbadger]

So, I'm thinking about making a crossbow for combat archery.

I have a trick shoulder. So if I manage to hit some wars again, I want options just in case it goes out and I cannot handle a shield or spear.

It would suck to drive all that way and have it go out on the first or second day or fighting.
Might as well just pack my ass up and leave early if I don't have backup plans.

A crossbow I could manage, even if the shoulder goes south on me.
And that would keep me fighting through the weekend.




This trail of thought led me to a whole string of ideas for the kit that should go with it...

I'm thinking a simple CoP, simple aluminum spalders, and the splinted leather arms and legs I have in progress, in pieces- and a chapel de fer to top the entire ensemble..maybe style myself a Burgundian mercenary crossbowman or something similar.
I won't bother with a backup melee weapon...If someone gets close enough to nail me, I'll just take it as a kill and walk.



So.

I'm now thinking about making a chapel, and I'm looking for ideas of how to do one when I can't easily weld the parts- that would include the cage to protect the exposed parts of my head and neck.

I'm assuming I can rivet barstock or slats inside/underside.
I'm also thinking a mail aventail for neck coverage....I pretty much always use an aventail on my helms, so its just a given for me.

How do other armourers normally attach a cage on one?
To the skull?
To the rim, up near the edge of the skull?

I'm also interested in seeing links to existing ones to get ideas.

As for the bow...

Well, the $20 fiberglass prods are good enough to start in making one.
I'm thinking oak for the tiller, and fellwalker bolts to shoot.

How many is a good number to take along for a battle?
I'm thinking either 20, or whatever fits in whatever quiver I wind up making.

This won't ever be anything but a backup kit, but I would still like to make it decent looking.

-Badger-

[schreiber]

Here's the first kettle I made. I'm posting it because if you're not welding, you can do a lot with rivets, but it's probably going to be more kettle-ish.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=100800&hilit=oil+blackening

I made another after that similarly, though it was a cut & welded spun top on the top.
I'm not sure how to do barwork without welding. There are period examples of kettles/chapels with full faces IIRC but I wouldn't want to wear them on the field (I'm not remembering a whole lot of breaths involved).

[RoaK]

My kettle hat... the bars are bolted to the helm via bolts screwed into nuts welded to the helm.

[Ironbadger]

Nice design.

I actually have a set of dished 14 gauge panels lying around that I could use.

I was actually thinking seriously about buying a rough from the hammer pointed bowl as the basis- but I'm planning to have several bowls made for projects...So I might hold off until I have a complete list of what I want to make and roll it all into one.

What I'm thinking of for the cage is this-
A back and sides of 12 gauge or 1/8th inch thick bars, wide enough that the spacing in the gaps is a safe width, and the tops bent and riveted to the underside of the brim.
Since the brim is planned as riveted to the bowl all around- I was thinking combining those rivet holes and the bar tops in one operation.

Add a rim bar around the base to collect everything, and solid frames on the sides of the face for the bargrill ends to be riveted to with a solid bar down the center.
(holes drilled and the bars go through it, like a typical heavy list grill using the drilled center bar design.)

I'm not thinking to tilt the helmet quite as far back as the one you made there, but tilting it would be a good idea.

So-
A cage made of slats, with a bargrill on the front, ends of the bars riveted to slightly thicker slats on the sides to anchor them, and the slat cage runs around the back to protect the neck.

I may try sketching what I have in mind anyway and post it to see if anyone has done similar designs before and found problems.

I'm thinking I want a slightly wider brim on mine- but how do you pattern one?
Just an oval or circle?
or are there any tricks I need to know before I cut one out?

I'm also thinking I'll turn the edge...Would it be better to go 14 gauge, or can you get away with 16 on a brim with a turned edge?
The skull is going to be 14....I am NOT trusting my melon to a 16 gauge skull on a heavy field..Even if I'm doing CA and should not theoretically be nuked by a fighter who manages to catch me.

(Yeah.....We all know what "shouldn't happen" often does...)

-Badger-

[schreiber]

Seems like you'd be putting more effort into this than necessary.
Why the welding aversion? Just don't have the resources?
If you're thinking about buying a helm top, why not a bargril? Ironmonger sells them.

I pattern brims with posterboard, using the "tape it in place and hack at it, tape at it, and swear at it until it's a brim".
For something like that I'll try to tape the edges enough to hold in place as a half-cone stuffed inside of it,
then I mark the line formed on the paper by the skull,
then I'll take it out, add 1" allowance, and cut,
then I'll cut darts out of the allowance (to mimic the flaring the steel will get) which will let it sit more or less flat up there,
then I'll cut the line of the brim about 1" past where I want it,
then I'll pull it off the skull and make a mirror duplicate,
then I'll tape the two halves together, tape it up in the skull, refine the brim to where I want it,
then pull it out, detach the halves, and make sure they still are mirrors of each other,
then I'll add 1/2" for roll allowance to the outside.

Personally, I'd go 14g for the brim. You will want to roll the edge. Rolling that much 14g brim is going to be real fun if your trick shoulder is on your hammerin' arm.

[Ironbadger]

I don't have a welder.
Its on the list of things to get- but the best I have on hand at the moment is a crappy little mini oxy-mapp torch like this-

http://www.bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS/KIT ... fault.aspx

Bought it for very small brazing jobs, and it works fine for those- but it goes through the small cans of oxygen really fast.

Riveting I can do right now, and I have a few hundred dome head rivets and pieces of 14 gauge mild steel lying around, so I have the materials and tools to actually make someone at hand.

I'm left handed, and the trick shoulder is on the right side.
So I can hammer just fine- But it only gives me hell when I have to hold heavy things and swing the arm violently for an extended period of time.
Like when using a shield.

I'm not concentrating on 9 foot pole for now, and I need to make gauntlets at some point before I can do either polearms or spear work.

I might skip spears entirely for a while, depending on when I get around to gauntlets.
I'll probably cheat and make them from stainless in the end.

As for buying a bargrill- well, I have the materials to make one, and I could tack the bars at the center with the tiny torch if they require it.

I had not thought about buying a ready made grill, but thanks for the suggestion.

-Badger-

Seems like you'd be putting more effort into this than necessary.
Why the welding aversion? Just don't have the resources?
If you're thinking about buying a helm top, why not a bargril? Ironmonger sells them.

Rolling that much 14g brim is going to be real fun if your trick shoulder is on your hammerin' arm.

[Ironbadger]

Interestingly enough, looking at Ironmonger's site, he offers a helmet thats almost exactly what I was thinking of making.
Shinier than what I envisioned...And the grill is not quite the same as what I was thinking...But its really close to what I thought of making with a RFTH helm top.

-Badger-

[Vladimir]

Hel, that is a sweet kettle. I don't remember Aldred fighting in that.

Of course, I've been off the fighting field for the past two years.

[DeCalmont]

I know you're not wanting to weld much here but if you talk to Adam "White Mountain Armoury" he might have some good tips for you. Instead of welding the nuts onto the brim maybe you could just rivet it on with the tabs on the bargrill. I've got one of Adams kettles and I wouldn't trade it for the world, especially great for Combat Archery I think.

[Ironbadger]

You know, I doodled up a sketch of what I had in mind for CA kit before I saw the photo here- its almost exactly what I drew.

Riveting the cage and grill on using the same rivets and holes that attach the skull and brim is what I had in mind.

I have been thinking of using the dished quarters I have already, but I may just go with a RFTH bowl instead to save labor.
I like the smoother look of a welded bowl...But I have a bowl in pieces that I could use just because I have it.

Nothing is certain- this is going to be something like a second or third kit for wars, so theres going to be less effort in it.

But I love making stuff, and I like making interesting bits.. Whether I use them or not.

More for the collection, in the end.



Thanks for the input.

-Badger-

I know you're not wanting to weld much here but if you talk to Adam "White Mountain Armoury" he might have some good tips for you. Instead of welding the nuts onto the brim maybe you could just rivet it on with the tabs on the bargrill. I've got one of Adams kettles and I wouldn't trade it for the world, especially great for Combat Archery I think.

[schreiber]

As for buying a bargrill- well, I have the materials to make one, and I could tack the bars at the center with the tiny torch if they require it.

I'm leery of non-acetylene welding ever since I read that the properties of the flame have everything to do with whether you get a sound weld. I know one of the reasons you can't weld with propane is because the weld ends up brittle. I don't know about Mapp, but I'll be consulting the Oracle at Google about it today.

One incredibly clever idea I've seen in the past involved a center bar that was actually 3/16" x 3/4" bar.
The 3/4" bar faces edgewise toward the front.
You heat it up and curve it so that it follows the profile of your face.
Then you punch the 3/16" thickness with 1/4" holes on 1" centers.
Run 1/4" bar through each of the holes, bend, flatten the ends, and rivet to the helm.

Hel, that is a sweet kettle. I don't remember Aldred fighting in that.

Of course, I've been off the fighting field for the past two years.

Yeah, he hasn't been fighting either! Though we're both talking seriously about making the transition to cut & thrust, meaning we're gonna need all new equipment anyway.

[Ironbadger]

I'm leery of non-acetylene welding ever since I read that the properties of the flame have everything to do with whether you get a sound weld. I know one of the reasons you can't weld with propane is because the weld ends up brittle. I don't know about Mapp, but I'll be consulting the Oracle at Google about it today.


I was not aware of that, actually.
Thanks for the info.

Mapp gas mini torches like this are sold for working steel on a small scale- but usually for brazing, rather than true welding.





One incredibly clever idea I've seen in the past involved a center bar that was actually 3/16" x 3/4" bar.
The 3/4" bar faces edgewise toward the front.
You heat it up and curve it so that it follows the profile of your face.
Then you punch the 3/16" thickness with 1/4" holes on 1" centers.
Run 1/4" bar through each of the holes, bend, flatten the ends, and rivet to the helm.

This was actually what I had in mind.
When I said tack welding the bars, I meant where they go through the center bar.

I guess I did not make that clear- my bad.

-Badger-

[Russ Mitchell]

Hungarian versions have something I don't normally see on the western ones: cutouts in the brim so that you can be head-down and cranking, and still look up with your eyes to see how far away the other guys are without exposing your face. Have never seen anybody do one like that, but it would be neat to see in modern abusable form.

[schreiber]

Hungarian versions have something I don't normally see on the western ones: cutouts in the brim so that you can be head-down and cranking, and still look up with your eyes to see how far away the other guys are without exposing your face. Have never seen anybody do one like that, but it would be neat to see in modern abusable form.

Here's the second kettle I made... this is based on something I saw in one of the Funcken books which I realize aren't haute authenticité...

[Vladimir]

That one is awesome looking!