Important review of Icefalcon!

[Bo Harris]

I see this as a big misunderstanding between two upright men with a hefty sum of money at stake.

I agree with this. Appears both sides had reasons to do what they did, and both acted accordingly throughout. I appreciate the review for what it is, and I believe that should be the end of the story.

[B. Amos]

From a busness standpoint I can understand 25% for somthing customised like a custom fit helm or armor with elements of your arms on it. For a standard item like maille it just doesn't make sense, it seems less like a restocking fee and more like a punishment for return. even thought the shirt in my opinion was poorly made.

I am not trying to paint Icefalcon in any light, I stated the facts and it is your choice what light to put them in. I did not tell anyone to boycott Icefalcon, he does carry some great products, All I said was to buy them in person to ensure there quality so that they can avoid a situation like this.

For those that have implied that I am whining or not telling the truth, I would ask you to hold your jugment untell you have met me in person. I am upset however, I lost 784.00 and have nothing to show for it. I should have kept the items and resold them myself, the only reason that I returned them is because Icefalcon said that he had lost money on the deal and I thought that by returning them that he could recoup his losses. I am also upset tha Icefalcon changed both the cost of the item and the restocking fee after the fact. I have no problem whith him recouping his losses but I beleve that 25% is way too much for an item such as this.

[Aaron]

I have met both Ice Falcon and Brother Amos, and both are upstanding gentlemen.

In my 11 years of purchasing Ice Falcon products, I have never had a bad experience. Once I was sent mild mail instead of stainless, and after figuring it out 8 months later, Ice Falcon exchanged the peices no questions asked. I will purchase again from Ice Falcon and visit his shop when I return to Maryland.

-Aaron

[B. Amos]

I have met and done busness with Icefalcon in the past as well. I have never seen a bad review but in this case I feel he has droped the ball.

[Knight Sir James]

2) Amos was charged a restocking fee accordingly.

Except now Ice has a set of Ti Mail that he can resell for retail price and make 25% MORE on because of that "25% restocking fee".
An extra $600+ in your pocket is nice yes?

Sure, but at the expense of tying up Ice's 75% of that cost until if/when the item sells. If Ice was just drop-shipping stuff and didn't have any inventory and could just return it back to the manufacturer, it'd probably be a different story - unless that manufacturer charges 25% return on their stuff Ice sells. If that shirt doesn't sell for 6 months, and it's tough to sell a $2k mail shirt in this market, even a nice titanium one, Ice is sitting on $2k of goods that he can't do anything with. Could use the money for car repairs, getting interest from a 6 month COD, fixing a leaking roof, paying off credit card debt ... but it's tied up in inventory sitting on the shelf, so it cuts two ways. The cost of the shirt is on Ice's shoulders until it's sold, and that hinders him financially. So when it sells, shouldn't he be entitled to something for his efforts and unrequested liability?

Again, not to fault Amos, just to point out the business end of things.

EDIT: Have you considered trying to exchange the shirt, instead of returning, then putting up a good quality shirt for sale? You might be able to only lose $100 or $200 that way. Since the TI mail is hard to get and a long backlog, you might get somebody who wants one immediately?

[BdeB]

Sure, but at the expense of tying up Ice's 75% of that cost until if/when the item sells. If Ice was just drop-shipping stuff and didn't have any inventory and could just return it back to the manufacturer, it'd probably be a different story - unless that manufacturer charges 25% return on their stuff Ice sells. If that shirt doesn't sell for 6 months, and it's tough to sell a $2k mail shirt in this market, even a nice titanium one,

Doesn't appear that it is TOO tough to sell a TI mail shirt....

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146609

[uwhguy]

If the product was damaged it should be returned and refunded no questions asked. A restocking fee is only relevant if Amos changed his mind at the last minute.

[Louis de Leon]

Doesn't appear that it is TOO tough to sell a TI mail shirt....

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146609

I found this thread after I started mine. I knew I would wind up in here, so I've been checking.

When I bought mine Ice said he had a few in stock in Large but my chest size needed an XL for comfort, so I had to wait. I was under the impression that the order might be in by Pennsic.

When this showed up early I was very happy. Then I found this thread and thought "oh holy crap what if he sent me Amos' bunk shirt with the thinned out and busted links?" This thing is pretty darn large. Putting it on was almost a Gimli moment.

But after inspection I decided that wasn't the case. Mine still had the famous "gunk" on it that I had to soak for a day to get it to come off, which implies that it is brand new. And I've inspected this item with care. Nothing missing. Three or four rivets have fallen off, but I count that as expected. Two were in the shipping box and I found two at the bottom of the bucket I used for cleaning. If this is Amos' old shirt Ice fixed it nicely before sending it to me.

Overall I am very happy. I'll tailor this thing to fit as soon as I source some dinky rivets and a setting tool, and I'll probably have enough off the bottom to fashion a matching camail for my hat, which is a nice bonus.

[InsaneIrish]

Sure, but at the expense of tying up Ice's 75% of that cost until if/when the item sells. If Ice was just drop-shipping stuff and didn't have any inventory and could just return it back to the manufacturer, it'd probably be a different story - unless that manufacturer charges 25% return on their stuff Ice sells. If that shirt doesn't sell for 6 months, and it's tough to sell a $2k mail shirt in this market, even a nice titanium one, Ice is sitting on $2k of goods that he can't do anything with. Could use the money for car repairs, getting interest from a 6 month COD, fixing a leaking roof, paying off credit card debt ... but it's tied up in inventory sitting on the shelf, so it cuts two ways. The cost of the shirt is on Ice's shoulders until it's sold, and that hinders him financially. So when it sells, shouldn't he be entitled to something for his efforts and unrequested liability?

You mean, like, every OTHER business in America that has Inventory?
Inventory is Inventory whether it is Ti Mail or plastic Widgets. It is the cost of doing business. If you build a business based off of "Off the Shelf" ready to ship items then the cost is INVENTORY.

I can go to Ice's site right now and buy an entire array of Ti Mail items. INVENTORY.

[Knight Sir James]

Sure, but at the expense of tying up Ice's 75% of that cost until if/when the item sells. If Ice was just drop-shipping stuff and didn't have any inventory and could just return it back to the manufacturer, it'd probably be a different story - unless that manufacturer charges 25% return on their stuff Ice sells. If that shirt doesn't sell for 6 months, and it's tough to sell a $2k mail shirt in this market, even a nice titanium one, Ice is sitting on $2k of goods that he can't do anything with. Could use the money for car repairs, getting interest from a 6 month COD, fixing a leaking roof, paying off credit card debt ... but it's tied up in inventory sitting on the shelf, so it cuts two ways. The cost of the shirt is on Ice's shoulders until it's sold, and that hinders him financially. So when it sells, shouldn't he be entitled to something for his efforts and unrequested liability?

You mean, like, every OTHER business in America that has Inventory?
Inventory is Inventory whether it is Ti Mail or plastic Widgets. It is the cost of doing business. If you build a business based off of "Off the Shelf" ready to ship items then the cost is INVENTORY.

I can go to Ice's site right now and buy an entire array of Ti Mail items. INVENTORY.

Right, but that's why the majority of other businesses have restocking fees, too. It might be in tiny fine print, but it's probably there. I think an "exchange for good one & sell it" is the better route to go, if it's a possibility.

[Paladin74]

The OP attacking a vendor because he was either unaware or chose to ignore the rules as they were defined is also inappropriate or at the very least, poor form. It seems like everyone, James included, is simply weighing in w/their experiences because a- we happen to know the vendor, some more intimately than others, b- he has a verifiable presence here, and is easily approachable and c- for those of us who have dealt with him, the respondents seem to have all had positive experiences with him, myself included. He pointed out a supposition...in a perfect world, such things wouldn't be considered. Seeing the amount of monetary outlay required to pull this sort of order in, I do not see it as a scam- he still has to eat the cost and there's no real guarantee he'll move it, altho there's a good chance that he might - I wonder that if he didn't do these mass orders, if anyone would've had ti-maille to begin with. As for stocking it, it seems cost-prohibitive so he says no, I'm not inclined to knock that.

$700 is a lot of money to be out, no argument there. I can understand the OP feeling some kind of way about it, but if it is legit, and it seems that way to me with all else presented, he'll just have to suck it up as a lesson learned. Hell, I wish I could afford ti-maille...maybe one day.

Sure, but at the expense of tying up Ice's 75% of that cost until if/when the item sells. If Ice was just drop-shipping stuff and didn't have any inventory and could just return it back to the manufacturer, it'd probably be a different story - unless that manufacturer charges 25% return on their stuff Ice sells. If that shirt doesn't sell for 6 months, and it's tough to sell a $2k mail shirt in this market, even a nice titanium one,

Doesn't appear that it is TOO tough to sell a TI mail shirt....

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146609

It hasn't sold so I wouldn't count that one as hatched. Yet.

[Bulby37]

However, if no one buys this Ti maille for a year, you have 2000 bucks you could be putting towards other ventures tied up in shelf space. May not be how one would choose to do business to keep that particular item in stock when there may be a more profitable product you could have around, or one that would be in higher demand. Hope this conflict comes to a resolution that satisfies both parties.

[schreiber]

2) Amos was charged a restocking fee accordingly.

Except now Ice has a set of Ti Mail that he can resell for retail price and make 25% MORE on because of that "25% restocking fee".
An extra $600+ in your pocket is nice yes?

If you don't have to ride people on the other side of Earth "like rented mules",
and you don't have to communicate on a regular basis with the customer,
and you don't eat $160 in extra cost voluntarily,
and you didn't have to pay out of pocket to get the item in the first place (and thus not have that money for PRODUCTIVE ventures),
and you don't have to watch that money occupy valuable shelf space until someone sized XXL with $2k burning a hole in his pocket just HAPPENS to come along and want to buy it,

then yeah, an "extra" $600 is nice.

Problem is, he had to do all that stuff and he's not guaranteed to be able to sell it for full price... ever.

[Christophe de Frisselle]

I've never seen a stocking fee applied on the return of any damaged/malfunctioning item to any retailer.
As to the rings breaking, looks like the Ti getting work hardened. Amazed it didn't fall apart it if fit that tight.

[Jestyr]

Try and ignore that you personally know each person in the story. Pretend it is John Smith and Walmart.

John Smith orders product from Walmart on a pre-order sale for $2,768.

Walmart previously did not have a policy to charge a re-stocking fee of 25%. They did not announce this change when asking for pre-orders.

Walmart delivers product very late, albeit explaining the whole time of the delays.

John Smith is not happy with the product and asks for refund.

Walmart charges a restocking fee of $734.

If I were John Smith, I would be freaking livid, and I think everyone here (including Ice) would be also.

Sorry, but I think Ice dropped the ball big time on this one. I fully understand that Ice is a small business person and *not* Walmart, but if you can't afford to sell a product given the risks, then you shouldn't sell it. His normal M.O. of transparency was really missing in this situation.

[Paladin74]

Jestyr, I may have read it wrong, but that restocking policy has been in effect since 2010? Last year, when it was ordered, it might have been new policy, but isn't it up to the customer to be apprised of the latest in policy updates? Ice probably could've sent a memo pointing people to the new policy (and who is to say he didn't? That I didn't see it means nothing, I generally ignore such posts). Let's forget about Ice for a second and think general retail- it has been my experience when I worked in retail that few people bother with knowing anything other than the sale price of an item. Is this something you've noted yourself?

[Bulby37]

And if Pre order oreo cookies are one price, and the yellow double stufs cost 3 bucks more, I cant preorder the regular oreos with a note saying I really want the yellow double stufs and not pay the extra 3 dollars. This analogy doesn't fit the situation very well (walmart vs john smith) but I see your point.

[armorbug]

Whether I'm paying two hundred dollars or two grand for an item, I ALWAYS ask about the seller's return policy. ALWAYS. Whether it's posted on the website or not, ASK! That's just good financial stewardship. And Ice is not in the wrong. If anyone...yes, anyone...returns a product they are subjected to the 25% restocking fee, not just Amos. Again, that's just good financial stewardship. Ice isn't in the business of giving away stuff...that's called charity and charity doesn't put food on the table.

[Ingvarr]

Jestyr, I may have read it wrong, but that restocking policy has been in effect since 2010? Last year, when it was ordered, it might have been new policy, but isn't it up to the customer to be apprised of the latest in policy updates? Ice probably could've sent a memo pointing people to the new policy (and who is to say he didn't? That I didn't see it means nothing, I generally ignore such posts). Let's forget about Ice for a second and think general retail- it has been my experience when I worked in retail that few people bother with knowing anything other than the sale price of an item. Is this something you've noted yourself?

Since I was the one who posted about 2010, yes you did read it wrong. In July 2010, it was not the policy. Now it is the policy. At some point between now and then it changed. I have no idea if it changed before or after Amos ordered his shirt. He thinks it was after. Andreas thinks it was before. There may not be anyway now to tell when the website was changed.

And if Pre order oreo cookies are one price, and the yellow double stufs cost 3 bucks more, I cant preorder the regular oreos with a note saying I really want the yellow double stufs and not pay the extra 3 dollars. This analogy doesn't fit the situation very well (walmart vs john smith) but I see your point.

That's true, but when the Oreo's arrive and the package is smaller than advertised and has weevils, should you pay Walmart $15 to allow you to return them?

[B. Amos]

Jestyr, I may have read it wrong, but that restocking policy has been in effect since 2010? Last year, when it was ordered, it might have been new policy, but isn't it up to the customer to be apprised of the latest in policy updates? Ice probably could've sent a memo pointing people to the new policy (and who is to say he didn't? That I didn't see it means nothing, I generally ignore such posts). Let's forget about Ice for a second and think general retail- it has been my experience when I worked in retail that few people bother with knowing anything other than the sale price of an item. Is this something you've noted yourself?

Paladin, If you look back, I did read the return policy before I returned my items. at that time it made no mention of maille, it was only for custom items. after I returned my item Icefalcon changed the policy to include maille and still charged me 25%

That is the whole point that some people are failing to see is that Icefalcon changed things after the fact and then held me to the new rule.

I realy would like to think that this was just a big misunderstanding. I hope Icefalcon does the right thing.

[B. Amos]

And if Pre order oreo cookies are one price, and the yellow double stufs cost 3 bucks more, I cant preorder the regular oreos with a note saying I really want the yellow double stufs and not pay the extra 3 dollars. This analogy doesn't fit the situation very well (walmart vs john smith) but I see your point.

As a seller of the yellow double stuffs, isin't that somthing that you would account for before taking any money for the oreos? Or would you wait untill after the cookies have been paid for and shipped to bring that up?

[Bulby37]

That's true, but when the Oreo's arrive and the package is smaller than advertised and has weevils, should you pay Walmart $15 to allow you to return them?

No, but I would probably send the tiny, crawly mass of it back and get a new box of oreos first. Unless, that is, the whole episode had turned me off to oreos entirely or I didnt want the oreos in the first place, in which case, I would want a refund. And if I called oreo hotline and they were prickish about it, I might be more inclined to just call it quits on my love affair with the double stuf.
Also, if they wanted to charge $15 to take them back, and that was 25% of the purchase price, I would definitely be buying the oreo knockoff brand. Like I said though, walmart vs john smith is a poor analogy, and oreos to titanium chain maille is much poorer. I don't feel like Amos was trying to get one over on anyone, nor do I think Ice is aiming to make money he didnt earn.

[Knight Sir James]

Jestyr, I may have read it wrong, but that restocking policy has been in effect since 2010? Last year, when it was ordered, it might have been new policy, but isn't it up to the customer to be apprised of the latest in policy updates? Ice probably could've sent a memo pointing people to the new policy (and who is to say he didn't? That I didn't see it means nothing, I generally ignore such posts). Let's forget about Ice for a second and think general retail- it has been my experience when I worked in retail that few people bother with knowing anything other than the sale price of an item. Is this something you've noted yourself?

Paladin, If you look back, I did read the return policy before I returned my items. at that time it made no mention of maille, it was only for custom items. after I returned my item Icefalcon changed the policy to include maille and still charged me 25%

That is the whole point that some people are failing to see is that Icefalcon changed things after the fact and then held me to the new rule.

I realy would like to think that this was just a big misunderstanding. I hope Icefalcon does the right thing.

Wait ... he changed the policy after you sent the item back? My understanding was he changed the policy when he did the TI mail pre-order. I vaguely recall seeing it back when I placed an order for some stainless steel mail sometime last year; I think it was on the mail "main" page where it lists styles available by each type. I checked now, and it's there, but I'm not sure when exactly I first saw it there. If he did change the policy, IMO, the policy change should be for any orders made after that point, and any unfulfilled orders when the policy was changed should be "grandfathered", so to speak. The wayback machine for 2010 is irrelevant since he wasn't doing TI mail at that time, and that's what brought about the policy change... I'm definitely confused now.

[Jestyr]

Regardless of when the new return policy made it's way onto the website, if a retailer has a very specific, loyal customer base and has the same return policy for years, and then offers a pre-sale on a new, very expensive item, don't you think it is the appropriate and responsible thing to do to inform of such a significant change?

Certainly, in my opinion, Ice had a responsibility of informing of such a significant policy change when announcing the pre-sale. A 25% restocking fee on a non-custom item is ABSURDLY high. And I completely understand why Ice wants to charge it. In his shoes, I would likely do the same or similar. But I would only charge it when I made it incredibly clear before the transaction happened.

Nearest I can tell, this is the problem here. Because Ice had a change in return policy and did not make it clear, it was inappropriate. In the future, when Ice wants to run a sale and the non-refundable deposit applies (aka restocking fee), he should be up front and clear about it (like he is about most everything else).

Whether I'm paying two hundred dollars or two grand for an item, I ALWAYS ask about the seller's return policy. ALWAYS. Whether it's posted on the website or not, ASK! That's just good financial stewardship.

Perhaps you are right, but if someone has done business with a retailer for years and has never seen or heard of this policy, or more importantly if something is posted on the website, there is an expectation that the retailer would inform of such a significant change, especially on such a significant dollar amount.

And if Pre order oreo cookies are one price, and the yellow double stufs cost 3 bucks more, I cant preorder the regular oreos with a note saying I really want the yellow double stufs and not pay the extra 3 dollars. This analogy doesn't fit the situation very well (walmart vs john smith) but I see your point.

One, this is not the major issue at play and is mostly irrelevant to the discussion. Two, a more accurate analogy would be a pre-sale on a piece of furniture that has never been sold and does not have a market yet. If you see that they offer it in red, and you say you'd prefer yellow and the retailer says, "No problem" and does not mention that it will cost more, then the customer is completely right to be pissed if he was charged more. Since it is a new product, the customer would have no idea that he product would cost more since there is not a defined market to define that increase.

it has been my experience when I worked in retail that few people bother with knowing anything other than the sale price of an item. Is this something you've noted yourself?

I've never really worked in retail, but I would generally agree with this. But I've also noted that at almost all retailers I've been to if there is an unusual return policy, it is posted quite clearly. I buy a lot of stuff on clearance, and in most cases there is a sign that states "All Sales Are Final" or something like that. Many retailers even stamp the receipt saying something like that (I know Saks does) because of the deviation in policy.

Once again, it is the significant policy change that was not made clear to the customer prior to the transaction that is at the core of the issue. Because of that, I feel the customer is in the right. 100%.

I do find it disappointing that this is happening to Ice as I have always had very good dealings with him, and in the world of the SCA he is one of the merchants that is known for outstanding customer service.

As an aside, I am a small business owner, and while it is not retail, I would say I have a fairly deep understanding of the difficulties of running a small business in the worst economic climate in 70 years. So while I feel for Ice in this situation, in my opinion he is very clearly in the wrong.

[Paladin74]

Paladin, If you look back, I did read the return policy before I returned my items. at that time it made no mention of maille, it was only for custom items. after I returned my item Icefalcon changed the policy to include maille and still charged me 25%

That is the whole point that some people are failing to see is that Icefalcon changed things after the fact and then held me to the new rule.

I realy would like to think that this was just a big misunderstanding. I hope Icefalcon does the right thing.

Hey Amos, thanks for the clarification. Seems I was laboring under a mistaken impression, I stand corrected. I too hope that Ice does the right thing; he usually does, as I've seen for myself when occasion called for it.

[Duke Icefalcon]

Ice,

Do you have a standard restocking fee for your items? I percentage of the price or something? How does it work, and where is it posted on your site?

Just curious... as I would hate to be bitten by something like this in the future.

The policy is written in the above post and on all of the pages on the catalog.

[Duke Icefalcon]

2) Amos was charged a restocking fee accordingly.

Except now Ice has a set of Ti Mail that he can resell for retail price and make 25% MORE on because of that "25% restocking fee".
An extra $600+ in your pocket is nice yes?

Good point unless you consider that times are tough and most folks are not running out of their houses trying to buy items this expensive. I have to sit on stuff like this till another person comes along and wants one. Again, if this was something that sell all of the time, it would not make much of a matter either way. If I have 10 people order expensive items and I prepay for them all and have them cancel; I get ruined. I have a family to feed as well. I have sympathy for Amos and his family. That is why we returned his money outside the return period.

[Duke Icefalcon]

I just can't take for a moment anyone thinking that ANYTHING I do is shady or misleading. No amount of money is worth it. I lost money on ordering custom legs and I will eat this deal as well. When I come back from Gulf Wars and have money, I will refund the rest of Mr Amos money to him.

My reputation is worth more to me than any amount of money. I have no personal issue with Mr Amos or anyone else for what they have said here. In all actuality, I would rather hear issues first hand than through the grapevine and I appreciate all opinions, good or bad.

Let me know if anyone wants a set of closed leggings. I will sell them for 20% off the list price.

[InsaneIrish]

Good point unless you consider that times are tough and most folks are not running out of their houses trying to buy items this expensive. I have to sit on stuff like this till another person comes along and wants one. Again, if this was something that sell all of the time, it would not make much of a matter either way. If I have 10 people order expensive items and I prepay for them all and have them cancel; I get ruined. I have a family to feed as well. I have sympathy for Amos and his family. That is why we returned his money outside the return period.

In this specific situation, as a customer, I would have no problem with a non-refundable deposit upfront for "pre-order" items. Perhaps in the future this is how you need to approach such transactions. Informed up front, that way you are covered for at least partial cost if they Cancel on the back end AND your customers know going in that they are in for a penny in for a pound.

[Count Johnathan]

I just can't take for a moment anyone thinking that ANYTHING I do is shady or misleading. No amount of money is worth it. I lost money on ordering custom legs and I will eat this deal as well. When I come back from Gulf Wars and have money, I will refund the rest of Mr Amos money to him.

My reputation is worth more to me than any amount of money. I have no personal issue with Mr Amos or anyone else for what they have said here. In all actuality, I would rather hear issues first hand than through the grapevine and I appreciate all opinions, good or bad.

Let me know if anyone wants a set of closed leggings. I will sell them for 20% off the list price.

Sneaky bastich always taking the high road and trying to do the right thing.

Sorry you can't do business like any normal company without getting crap for trying to cover yourself from financial ruin. Seriously it is depressing that trying to function like a normal business causes people to give you such a hard time.

This is why you will continue to do well in this industry however so long as you do not allow the masses to take advantage of your generosity. Good on you your grace.

[Jestyr]

In this specific situation, as a customer, I would have no problem with a non-refundable deposit upfront for "pre-order" items. Perhaps in the future this is how you need to approach such transactions. Informed up front, that way you are covered for at least partial cost if they Cancel on the back end AND your customers know going in that they are in for a penny in for a pound.

I completely agree.

[Heath B fraychef]

I just can't take for a moment anyone thinking that ANYTHING I do is shady or misleading. No amount of money is worth it. I lost money on ordering custom legs and I will eat this deal as well. When I come back from Gulf Wars and have money, I will refund the rest of Mr Amos money to him.

My reputation is worth more to me than any amount of money. I have no personal issue with Mr Amos or anyone else for what they have said here. In all actuality, I would rather hear issues first hand than through the grapevine and I appreciate all opinions, good or bad.

Let me know if anyone wants a set of closed leggings. I will sell them for 20% off the list price.

while i commed his grace on this generous offer it sets a dangerous standard.
(let me first state that i have no opinion on the issue discussed here either way.)
because this review was posted on a public forum and has obviously garnered much attention it places ice in a position to either A. be forced into refunding monies he would not otherwise refund as specified in his return policy
or B. suffer potentially irreprible damage to his carefully obtained reputation.
both options have been forced.
not because ice has decided to refund the money to protect his reputation it opens the door to the next person who feels they deserve a refund for whatever reason. even after the alloted time period designated for reurns.
because they know if they make a bid enough deal about it and are loud enough about besmirching him he will do what it takes to protect his rep.
like i said before i have no opinion on the current issue but the precedent is there and its pretty jacked up.

[BdeB]

I find it really, really hard to see how anyone is "besmirched". Ice is, as usual doing the right thing. 'Nuff said.

[William Frisbee]

I just can't take for a moment anyone thinking that ANYTHING I do is shady or misleading. No amount of money is worth it. I lost money on ordering custom legs and I will eat this deal as well. When I come back from Gulf Wars and have money, I will refund the rest of Mr Amos money to him.

My reputation is worth more to me than any amount of money. I have no personal issue with Mr Amos or anyone else for what they have said here. In all actuality, I would rather hear issues first hand than through the grapevine and I appreciate all opinions, good or bad.

Let me know if anyone wants a set of closed leggings. I will sell them for 20% off the list price.

Wow... now that is stepping up.

And some folks say stuff like honor and courtesy is dead...

[Heath B fraychef]

I find it really, really hard to see how anyone is "besmirched". Ice is, as usual doing the right thing. 'Nuff said.

no, not in this instance the point was that someone "could" throw a public tantrum in the attempt to make him look bad publicly knowing he will do whatever he needs to to keep his reputation clean.