I your first kit as bad as mine?

[Vitus von Atzinger]

My first kit summer 1987.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

The arms were made of stainless scales.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

There are no pictures of my first armor. Cave paintings, maybe.

Carpet and duct tape, Knee cops that could double as the hood of a late 1960's VW Beetle, A wooden shield about 3/4 of an inch thick, with an steel rim. Helm was one of the first "movible visor" helms in the area - I was sooo cool. It also looked like a BULLET.

So there I was, a left handed, shag covered bullet with a oak card table on one arm...


.

[Vladimir]

Was it that long ago?

I guess it was.

[Eirik]

Eirik the Viking:
Barrel helm with horns painted on it
Carpet tabard spray painted silver
Bus stop sign breast and back plates painted black
plastic skateboarder elbows
foam gauntlets covered in thick leather strips (see thighs)
thin leather legs with thick leather strips on the thighs
steel cops over knee pad knees
jump boots covered in bunny fur

Interstate sign shield.

That's all I'm gonna say about that.

[Vladimir]

bold and underlining mine

Eirik the Viking:
Barrel helm with horns painted on it
Carpet tabard spray painted silver
Bus stop sign breast and back plates painted black
plastic skateboarder elbows
foam gauntlets covered in thick leather strips (see thighs)
thin leather legs with thick leather strips on the thighs
steel cops over knee pad knees
jump boots covered in bunny fur

Interstate sign shield.

That's all I'm gonna say about that.

Funny thing is, if the shield was painted, and the skateboard elbows were worn under a shirt it still passes the letter of the Atlantian appearance law that so many were moaning and crying about.

[Klaus the Red]

Luca- My friend Martin of Rivenstar has a photo circa 1999 up on his wall of the two of us fighting in a very similar posture to yours, except I'm the righty and he's the lefty. I am opening my ribs way up and he's about to snap his stick around and punish me for it. My cheap tabard was yawning open just like yours, revealing my body armor at the time: a bright red-and-white Tae Kwan Do chest protector.

Klaus

[KeggeR]

My first kit, 1999





------

[Overkillphil]

I am amazed as to how high the Kilt percentage is in these first kits.

"Scots" were the pirates of 10-15 years ago (Braveheart).

-Derian.

Gotta go back a little further... Highlander was the flick that spawned many a SCAdian. I know I'm not the only guy that tried to field a great kilt.

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

My first kit from last year

[Urban]

My first kit at 16, the pants were a little raggedy and my helm was a spun-top, but all in all I thought it was a good looking kit.

http://www.angelfire.com/id2/darkmind260/MVC-881X.JPG

[Josh W]

A page full of photos of a late iteration of my first kit, taken sometime in the late '90s, though I'd had that kit since 1994 or so.

http://dwarlock.stormpages.com/joaquin.html



Hideous! Blecch!

[Jan van Nyenrode]

Hi Josh,

That's actually a brilliant photo set. It exactly demonstrates that while all the elements are 'almost' correct by themselves together it doesn't capture the aesthetic your aiming for. Unlike your current kit which is pretty much spot on.

Cheers,

Jan

[Thomas MacFinn]

July 1990 in Atlantia.

A man is on the field in a suit that looks a bit like lorica segmentata made out of tan shag carpet laced together with twine. A bystander in fine guarb is cracking jokes. A Duke turns to the jokster and says, "At least he's out there."

To this day, one of my favorite memories.

[Mac]

July 1990 in Atlantia.

A man is on the field in a suit that looks a bit like lorica segmentata made out of tan shag carpet laced together with twine. A bystander in fine guarb is cracking jokes. A Duke turns to the jokster and says, "At least he's out there."

To this day, one of my favorite memories.

I would argue that a well dressed person on the side lines is worth *more* than a fighter in shitty looking equipment.

Mac

[Nissan Maxima]

Not if you need someone to fight.

[Said ibn-Ali]

I was not in the SCA when the Freon Can helms were in fashion, but I have one. It is on top of my pell, it has been passed down through the ages in the Canton, and it has ended up on my pell, because no one wants to put it back in the loaner gear.

[Mac]

Not if you need someone to fight.

Nissan,

I'm sure that you don't really mean this. You have never struck me as being short sighted.

Warm bodies in miserable armor are a cheap fungible commodity. You get three or four new ones every time your group does a fighting demo.

By contrast, person in good garb is a thing that took time and work to happen.

If you are willing to admit that the SCA is anything other than the fighting field, you must see that these people should be cultivated, and not insulted by thinly veiled threats of physical violence.

There is really nothing funny in Thomas' story. All too frequently, people who are interested in the middle ages, and are willing to make an effort to look good are made to feel unwanted because they do not fight.

Mac

[Said ibn-Ali]

Mac,

I can say this, it depends on the person standing on the sidelines talking trash.

I have seen some people who have been around for SOME time who talk a big game, and dont have the garb to show for it, the A&S skills to back it up, or the martial skills in any field to do anything about it. Yet, are the first to say, "eh I could have done that better." or "He should have done this instead of that."

All the while wearing a simple cotten T Tunic with a pair of Dickies cargo pants on, and some old combat boots.

In that case, I would rather have someone to fight.

But otherwise I agree with you.

[Mac]

Said,

We are in agreement. It is well to note, however, that Thomas' story involved "A bystander in fine guarb (sic)", and not a poser in a T-tunic and sneakers.

Mac

[Galvyn Lockhart]

Mac,

While I do agree that nothing can be gained by putting down an individual who has invested either time or money into a fine presentation, no matter what his role in our hobby. Perhaps that individual should make better use of his time & knowledge helping others improve their presentation rather than casting verbal stones at them.

[Mac]

Mac,

While I do agree that nothing can be gained by putting down an individual who has invested either time or money into a fine presentation, no matter what his role in our hobby. Perhaps that individual should make better use of his time & knowledge helping others improve their presentation rather than casting verbal stones at them.

That would certainly be the best scenario, Galvyn. There is no denying that that is what the nicely dressed observer should have done. I dearly wish that we would all behave that way.

What bothers me about the original incident in Thomas' story is the implicit suggestion by the Duke, that *Fighting* (no mater how ridiculously the combatants are attired) is the most important thing a SCAjun can do. This further caries the implication that if the smart assed observer was "man enough" to get into the lists, they would all teach him his manners. Anyone who thinks that this is funny is laughing at the wrong person.

Mac

[jester]

Not if you need someone to fight.

Nissan,

I'm sure that you don't really mean this. You have never struck me as being short sighted.

Warm bodies in miserable armor are a cheap fungible commodity. You get three or four new ones every time your group does a fighting demo.

By contrast, person in good garb is a thing that took time and work to happen.

If you are willing to admit that the SCA is anything other than the fighting field, you must see that these people should be cultivated, and not insulted by thinly veiled threats of physical violence.

There is really nothing funny in Thomas' story. All too frequently, people who are interested in the middle ages, and are willing to make an effort to look good are made to feel unwanted because they do not fight.

Mac

According to Corpora the only event that must take place is Crown Tournament. Everything else is optional. Draw your conclusions.

Back on topic: My first gear was lorica segmentata made out of an ABS plastic barrel I stole from a park, leather from a scrap bin, and a pair of ornamental door hinges. I hammered it together using a concrete porch as the anvil. I bought the knees, an elbow, and a helmet as a second-hand package deal. A leather and plastic dog-collar gorget and a store-bought athletic cup pretty much rounded out the package. I duct-taped leather to my forearms for vanbraces and my first two events I borrowed basket-hilted swords. The helmet's gone, I still have the knees and lorica (though I don't wear them) and the cup crawled off into the wild years ago. I covered most of it with a dark purple tunic that would catch fire and melt if it got too close to a fire. Fugly.

[Mac]

According to Corpora the only event that must take place is Crown Tournament. Everything else is optional. Draw your conclusions.

Thank you, Jester....I needed that!

Mac

[Nissan Maxima]

Not if you need someone to fight.

Nissan,

I'm sure that you don't really mean this. You have never struck me as being short sighted.

Warm bodies in miserable armor are a cheap fungible commodity. You get three or four new ones every time your group does a fighting demo.

By contrast, person in good garb is a thing that took time and work to happen.

If you are willing to admit that the SCA is anything other than the fighting field, you must see that these people should be cultivated, and not insulted by thinly veiled threats of physical violence.

There is really nothing funny in Thomas' story. All too frequently, people who are interested in the middle ages, and are willing to make an effort to look good are made to feel unwanted because they do not fight.

Mac

If you write something I feel compelled to give it serious thought.

I will begin by stating my bias, which is that fighting is the only thing I do in the SCA.If it doesn't happen on the battlefied, a commaders meeting or my own camp I am gonna miss it. My guys don't spend much time looking like crap because they are dragged into better kit by main force, jeers and charity. Good kit is a tactical as well as a psychological advantage. In addition, my guys embarrass me enough with their behavior, I don't need the extra grief of being shamed by their appearance, so I do what I can.

People who don't want to fight, shouldn't. And they should never be made to feel the less for it. Whatever it is they are interested in they should do the hell out of. I just don't have much contact with people like that, with the exception of armourers, for obvious reasons. However, in the story we are discussing, they well dressed spectator should be prepared for snark if he castigates a fighter, in front of another fighter. We are tribal monkeys, when all is said and done.

[Mac]

If you write something I feel compelled to give it serious thought.

Thank you, Nissan.

I will begin by stating my bias, which is that fighting is the only thing I do in the SCA.If it doesn't happen on the battlefied, a commaders meeting or my own camp I am gonna miss it. My guys don't spend much time looking like crap because they are dragged into better kit by main force, jeers and charity. Good kit is a tactical as well as a psychological advantage. In addition, my guys embarrass me enough with their behavior, I don't need the extra grief of being shamed by their appearance, so I do what I can.

I am glad to hear that you make an effort to get your guys looking good. The fact that you can feel shame for for the appearance of your friends says a lot.

People who don't want to fight, shouldn't. And they should never be made to feel the less for it. Whatever it is they are interested in they should do the hell out of. I just don't have much contact with people like that, with the exception of armourers, for obvious reasons. However, in the story we are discussing, they well dressed spectator should be prepared for snark if he castigates a fighter, in front of another fighter. We are tribal monkeys, when all is said and done.

You make a good point when you say that we are tribal monkeys. The drive to form clans goes deeper than our humanity. Sometimes I think the best we can do is to try to be more expansive when define our tribe, and include a few people don't fit the mold. The world would be a better place if all had a bit more variety in our clans.

Mac

[Menken]

Carpet armour and freon helms trump that any day and were still around when I joined in 1978.

...but ya' tell that to kids today, and do they believe ya'?

I wore such crap myself in the fall of '78.

Mac

You didn't start off in flawless Maximilian plate? All of my illusions have been shattered!

[Konstantin the Red]

The world would be a better place if all had a bit more variety in our clans.

Even unto mixing our plaids? American Police is gonna clash horribly with Buchanan minestrone... Mostly because AP's overall dark-mauve effect does not play nicely with saffron yellow...

[Guy Dawkins]

People who don't want to fight, shouldn't. And they should never be made to feel the less for it. Whatever it is they are interested in they should do the hell out of. I just don't have much contact with people like that, with the exception of armourers, for obvious reasons.

He does have contact...he just doesn't always realize it.

[Kilkenny]

Mac,

While I do agree that nothing can be gained by putting down an individual who has invested either time or money into a fine presentation, no matter what his role in our hobby. Perhaps that individual should make better use of his time & knowledge helping others improve their presentation rather than casting verbal stones at them.

That would certainly be the best scenario, Galvyn. There is no denying that that is what the nicely dressed observer should have done. I dearly wish that we would all behave that way.

What bothers me about the original incident in Thomas' story is the implicit suggestion by the Duke, that *Fighting* (no mater how ridiculously the combatants are attired) is the most important thing a SCAjun can do. This further caries the implication that if the smart assed observer was "man enough" to get into the lists, they would all teach him his manners. Anyone who thinks that this is funny is laughing at the wrong person.

Mac

I can recognize your point, but I don't think that your interpretation is inherently valid.

You have to read a great deal into the Duke's comment to get to your conclusion. It may have been there - it may not. It isn't in the words as written by Thomas.

It's also entirely possible that all the Duke did was to throw back at the fine dressed fellow a bit of his own medicine, in a fashion intended to highlight the inappropriateness of the commentary - with no veiled threat whatsoever.

I certainly agree that the SCA is not all about the fighting, but I won't accept the suggestion that a person in fine dress who is denigrating another person over their appearance is more valuable, in any sense, than the person they are denigrating.

We know far too little about the elements of the story to understand what the situation truly was. Was it a brand new fighter in ugly gear, or one who had been at it for years without ever upgrading? Was the commentator one who had spent years learning to make their clothing and shared their research freely with the community, or someone who bought a nice outfit from a merchant? Had the Duke already tried more delicate ways of correcting the commentator's behaviour, or was this his first remark?

Clothes may make the man, but they should not grant license to behave boorishly.

And no, I have not read the entire exchange before commenting...

[Mac]

I derailed this thread in a moment of passion, and for that I am sorry.

I hope that all will accept my apologies.

Mac

[Nissan Maxima]

These things happen. Don't sweat it.

[Rodney]

My favorite from the early 90's was OttO von Castor's "slow moving vehicle" triangle he used as a back/butt plate. It was both protective and appropriate. I'm trying to find a photograph somewhere in the basement...

[Pa'gan]

not got photo's that old but mine was red pickle barrel tied to a hoodie with baseball catchers legs( fins bolted on them ) and scate boarders knees as elbows and hocky gloves

[woodwose]

My first SCA kit was welder's leathers that I cut up and retailored into the generic poncho style coat of plates shape that I saw a lot of people wearing. I then riveted leather squares all over it to make scale armor. I think I had football shoulder pads under it, and football thigh pads (?) covered with leather for cuisses. I used the kit for a year or so, then fighting in my first war I realized how horribly unprotective the leather scale was as I took a hard spear shot to my chest that cracked off the bottom bones and cartilage of my sternum. Here's a picture of my dad and I at a public library demo in 1995.

http://mailmaker.tripod.com/armor/heavy1995.jpg