Alternatives to Leather for C.O.P.

[Bran ap Eynon]

I'm starting to collect materials for a coat of plates and am looking for an alternative to leather to attach the plates to. I had heard that canvas was a viable option, but I'm looking for more detailed input and information.

First time posting to these forums so let me know if I missed something and thanks for the help ahead of time!

[besserai]

I am about to start my own CoP as well.

My research seems to indicate that two layers of heavy canvas for the outer shell will do. Make sure to use an awl when piercing holes for the rivets. Make an effort to minimize the number of threads that are being cut. I've also heard of people using velvet as a outer shell.

What are your plates made out of? Steel, aluminum, plastic?

Folks are going to ask what sport you are playing too. Foamy combat has different requirements than rattan.

I'm sure the experts will chime in soon.

[Bran ap Eynon]

Plates will be steel, possibly 16 or 18 gauge, haven't decided yet. I am considering the kit from Polar Bear forge (I have a friend who recently purchased one and I helped him assemble it).
As far as the sport goes, I currently play a boffer, but want to build my kit to SCA specs so that I can participate in that as well once it's all assembled.

[Jan]

I've used two layers of heavy cotton duck and it works quite well and holds up for a long time.

[Kel Rekuta]

A layer of upholstery fabric over cheap painter's canvas on 18 ga. mild steel holds up to full contact rebated steel combat. No problem for rattan combat. That combo looks better than plain canvas or duck cotton.

Do not use 16ga mild for a CoP, it will be excessively heavy.

[Konstantin the Red]

Welcome and well come, Bran ap Eynon. You've come to the right place. We can offer tips on all kinds of DIY.

[I. Stewart]

I have always been under the impression/opinion that leather was the alternative. Canvas is far more comfortable, available, and affordable.

[marcus the pale]

Spring for a double layer of canvas weight linen, and use stainless or aluminum for the plates. You willbe glad you did.




Marcus

[RoaK]

Mine is made from duck canvas. Use a pointy awl to poke the holes by picking into the material between the threads.

[DeCalmont]

Two layers of Canvas


Also two layers of Canvas

[Bran ap Eynon]

Thanks for all the input everyone! I have worked with duck canvas before so I will probably double layer that just to be safe.

[besserai]

I just got the Polar Bear Forge CoP kit too and I will be taking the two layers of canvas approach as well. I will share pictures of my progress when I get around to assembling it (probably will take me a few weeks from now).

If you wish to cross game with this armour then you will have to take your boffer combat rules into account as well. Is that why you were thinking 16ga?

[Cuneglas ap Niche]

Did you hand sew or use a sewing machine. I am planning on doing plastic plates.
If you did via a machine, how did the machine hold up?
Thanks

[Bran ap Eynon]

Is that why you were thinking 16ga?

I'm also going to start working on a set of full arms and was debating 16ga to splint the vambrace and rerebrace, and thus was just going to buy a large sheet of 16ga. However, the kit looked really easy and very worth it...

[Konstantin the Red]

Easy kits are good things for first tries.

[Galvyn Lockhart]

It's also not a bad idea to keep some fraycheck handy, in case you do break the odd thread here or there. I think I actually re-enforced each hole I made on my last CoP w/ the stuff as a precaution.

edit to add: CoP in question is an outer layer of upholstery fabric lined w/ a med. weight canvas.

[Vilhelm550]

Admittedly my CoP was 5-6 oz. leather, but I used a kit with 18 Ga galvanized steel. Worked fine for SCA combat for many years.

[Jan]

It's also not a bad idea to keep some fraycheck handy, in case you do break the odd thread here or there. I think I actually re-enforced each hole I made on my last CoP w/ the stuff as a precaution.

edit to add: CoP in question is an outer layer of upholstery fabric lined w/ a med. weight canvas.

Definitely!! I hit each hole with fray check as well.

[marcus the pale]

Did you hand sew or use a sewing machine. I am planning on doing plastic plates.
If you did via a machine, how did the machine hold up?
Thanks

Keep in mind, while cheaper, plastic insulates heat, it takes a lot more heat for metal to become hot enough to cause problems. Once I started changing out plastic for metal, I noticed a huge heat difference. You may not have a heat problem, just something to think about.


Marcus

[Zohar]

Is there a thread on forming the plates for a CoP? I got the Polar Bear kit and fabric and have a pattern for the fabric, but the search function hasn't shown any source for shaping the plates, especially the side plates. The front just have to get a curve to them, but the side plates seem to require much fore work.

[Emeryk]

I am almost done with my first CoP. Not sure what i'm gonna do with it yet. Although I did use leather instead of fabric. I formed the side plates with a plastic hammer and a "U" shapped die from a press break that has a radius of about 10" or so. I will try and get some pics up soon.

[RandallMoffett]

In period we see velvet, canvas and leather.

The only coat of plates with remaining traces of foundation layer I know of is in Italy and is canvas.

I use 2-3 layers of canvas. Very little leather now a days but have.

RPM

[Emeryk]

This is the CoP i am almost done with, just needs closures at back and the shoulder protection.




http://www.flickr.com/photos/72939713@N02/6897327456/

[Zohar]

Looks great, and that really helps seeing the inside. It looks like you put a really gently curve in all the plates. It looks like I need to find a shallower dishing device. And i think it is time for some trig to figure this one out. Gotta love math and metal!

[wcallen]

Looks great, and that really helps seeing the inside. It looks like you put a really gently curve in all the plates. It looks like I need to find a shallower dishing device. And i think it is time for some trig to figure this one out. Gotta love math and metal!

Trig? Pish.

Just curve the plates. Assuming the normal pattern, curve the front plates so they roughly fit around the front of your body with appropriate clothing, then do the same with the back plates (the curve goes the long way, not the short way). The last one I did the plates curved more for the first few and less across the back, but there isn't a lot of curve either way.

Wade

[Zohar]

So act as if all the plates that wrap around the sides and the back are one continuous curve going around me? I wish I still had that lorica I made a few years ago. I know I am making things over complicated, but I always worry about screwing up. I like not having to order more pieces and starting over.

[Ernst]

From 7/13/2002

In "Armour from the Battle of Wisby", Thordeman states in Chapter 5 that the coat "...in those cases where it could be proved, was made of leather but may also have been made of, or covered with, cloth...). Leather remnants, usually under the heads of rivets, as well as the length of the rivet shaft protruding past the plate indicate leather. However, armor 2 (Type 1) has round washers beneath some rivets. "These washers were visible on the outside of the cover, to judge from the traces of coarse cloth--very likely from the cover or its lining--which clearly pass beneath the same." Also, "As has already been mentioned there is on the outside of these plates a coating of rust with a distinct fabric pattern. Here and there this coating runs below the rivet-heads, and consequently leaves traces of the cover to which the plates have been riveted...These traces of cloth do not, however, show conclusively that the covering consisted only of cloth, they may also conceivably be the remnants of a cloth lining of a covering of some other material. Actually, some remnants here and there, esecially distinct round a rivet on the left breastplate, show that such had been the case, and that the covering itself had consisted of leather."

Also, armor fragment 33, a back plate of a Type 1 armor, with the iron loop at the top for suspending the side plates from the back, has "traces of cloth on the outside."

In other words, Thordeman seems to indicate a cloth covered leather as a foundation. However, I have seen SCA plates on a fabric coat with leather washers beneath the rivet heads, which reportedly kept the rivets from pulling through.

[Emeryk]

I also used leather washers on the outside. This was just added protection from the rivet digging into the leather too far. If I have to replace any plates the leather shell will not be damaged too much.

[Ironbadger]

Two layers of canvas seems to be the consensus for a durable and comfortable CoP.

You can cover one layer of canvas with a layer of decorative cloth such as upholstery velvet easily, and theres upholstery fabrics in plenty to choose from.

I actually found a cotton or cotton blend upholstery brocade that I love...But theres not quite enough in the remnant to use for a brigandine.

Its a REALLY thick cloth....Almost like a carpet... So I am thinking I may use it as one layer alone.

Its exactly 48 inches long, by I think 60 inches wide.
So its almost exactly the width of my torso, with no room left over for seam allowances or padding under it...
Oh fate, why must you torment me so!?

I may be able to make it work anyway by adding a few inches of canvas width under the armpits though.

-Badger-

[Sergeant Marli]

What is everyone using for rivets?

[Emeryk]

Mine is copper roofing nails.

[DeCalmont]

Brass with nickel washers on one and copper rivets on the other

[Adriano]

I used 6d nails, with pennies for washers.

[Paladin74]

Mine was wool outershell, linen inner, linen backing. Ended up letting it go because it was too big for me.

[Cuneglas ap Niche]

BTW Tandy has 45 ft. 4 oz. upholstery sides on sale for $69. Thought I would let everyone know.