Hitting the same spot mutliple times

[Sjolander]

2 or 3 shots to the same spot. How do you do it? Is it slow for you, fast for you? Is the first shot power and the next two all wrist weak-sauce? Do you have a special technique to pull it off?

[Malcolm MacLachlan]

First uses a lot more arm and the second shot requires you to throw a lot of hip into it and crack it a bit more. Course I'm a wimpy boy. I know some silverback corn-fed boys that can throw them all day with a ton of power.

[Sjolander]

For the second shot, do you pull back along the same angle you struck? When I try it I tend to "twist and pull" up and around for the second shot (I know it's vague but that's the best description I can come up with).

[Kilkenny]

Much of the answer depends on what the target is. Not every target can be repeatedly hit with the same technique. Offside body shots can be hammered repeatedly with almost no arm motion by shoulder and hip rotation. Onside head works better with different technique(s).

It also makes a difference how fast you're trying to hit that same target. Different recoveries take different periods of time and it's the recovery that takes up most of the time in your shot rapid fire routine.

HG Paul explained an enlightening observation last Pennsic - "power is applied on the return". Which means if you do it right, you can be accelerating your blow with each shot.

If you're having to wristy weak-sauce stuff to get fast shots, you're doin' it wrong

Some shots it works well to basically lock your shoulder, elbow and wrist and use hip drive and shoulder rotation to crank it again and again, but that won't work at all for some shots and some targets.

Something else to consider is that some things that look "wristy" are really very efficient whip actions that can drive each successive shot faster.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

Like Kilkenny said, it depends upon what shot you are trying to "double tap" as to what technique you use to accomplish it.

[Boden]

Also second what killkenny said. Play with it on a pell and you're bound to unlock the secrets for yourself for different locations. (Though, I would make sure it's a soft pell and go light to full power. And play with everything from calf contractions, to hip rotation, to wrist flicking. Practicing even 5 times in the same spot.)

Boden

[Athanaric]

I will typically use a modified Duke Paul tear drop technique. I vary the size of the tear drop depending on a multitude of factors. I can double tap to the on side head super fast with the second shot being just as hard or harder then the first.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Yup. All in the proper mechanics. My second shot typically involves a lot more hip/weight shift, then reversing the action - the sword returns far enough that I can get to speed on the next blow. A lot of your weak "double taps" comes from the guy throwing the blow trying to fire the second shot with the blade too close to the target. You need a certain distance to accelerate to "terminal velocity". That said, guys with good mechanics can make this a VERY small distance.

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[Said ibn-Ali]

I will typically use a modified Duke Paul tear drop technique. I vary the size of the tear drop depending on a multitude of factors. I can double tap to the on side head super fast with the second shot being just as hard or harder then the first.

Likewise. The Teardrop technique works, and works great. Duke Cuan showed it to me and a bunch of other fighters a few years ago, and made it looks simple, and I have used it ever since.

[Ogedei]

Speed is fine. But how fast the second shot of a double tap comes in is often a factor of how effective it could be.

ie it can be possible to throw two blows at the same place too fast, having your opponent essentially blocking both with a single movement. It can be MUCH more effective to take a little time to properly re-load and fire and the spot as they are recovering from the first blow.

[Count Johnathan]

One of the elements of my training was practicing returning the sword to it's original position after the blow was delivered just as fast as the shot was thrown. This training builds the return or pulling muscles that many training techniques ignore but it is very important to build those muscles and it enables one to throw multiple shots to the same target (for most shots but not all as Kilkenny explained) with speed and power. That training also aids in returning to your defensive posture faster as well to keep your defense tight. Most people are open for a split second when they throw a blow and many counter shooters wait to exploit those openings. The faster you can close those gaps after firing the better!

Add: The above technique is very much Karate like in its movement. It can be strenuous and is difficult to practice. Many looping techniques will provide some similar effect and is more of a flowing kung fu like style of swordplay which is a little nicer to your tendons and ligaments. I use both methods depending on the situation. Practice hard and have fun!

[Kilkenny]

Yup. All in the proper mechanics. My second shot typically involves a lot more hip/weight shift, then reversing the action - the sword returns far enough that I can get to speed on the next blow. A lot of your weak "double taps" comes from the guy throwing the blow trying to fire the second shot with the blade too close to the target. You need a certain distance to accelerate to "terminal velocity". That said, guys with good mechanics can make this a VERY small distance.

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Yep. One thing that people can forget is that "certain distance" is the distance your blade travels to the target, rather than the distance from your hand to the target.

A moulinet, for example, can get you a very long arc of travel for the blade (like, 360 deg.) while your hand remains extended and quite close to the target. Properly executed, that second shot is going to have Plenty of power, just from swinging the sword around. Add a little hip and some tension in the arm and you can lift that from Plenty of power to Rock'em Sock'em Robot type power

Paul's "Teardrop return" is an excellent technique to know and use, but it's worth recognizing that a tighter (and less energy efficient) variation can allow you to get good power on second shots with almost no apparent recovery.

I don't think I can write an adequate description of how that one works... mutter.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Heh - very true. I throw what a couple locals have called "Diglach is a Rat-Bastard" combo -

I throw offside head shots - 1 and 2 and 1 and 2... disengage.... then 1 and 2 and 1 AAAAAAAAAAND 2 (POW!)
On the last shot, I let the blade return just a little bit further.... throws the timing off, blade never stops.

Speed is fine. But how fast the second shot of a double tap comes in is often a factor of how effective it could be.

ie it can be possible to throw two blows at the same place too fast, having your opponent essentially blocking both with a single movement. It can be MUCH more effective to take a little time to properly re-load and fire and the spot as they are recovering from the first blow.

[Sjolander]

I'm going to work on these suggested tecniques. Give me a few days and I'll post some video so you can see if I've got the right idea.

[rhys]

I will typically use a modified Duke Paul tear drop technique. I vary the size of the tear drop depending on a multitude of factors. I can double tap to the on side head super fast with the second shot being just as hard or harder then the first.

your my hero......

[maxntropy]

Much can be learned yourself by placing two pieces of tape on the pell and then conducting thousand-cut-practices trying the myriad different ways you can throw blows properly targeted into the same target area.

After a few such practices you will have a much deeper personal knowledge about which shots to the same target area work best and how they do so.

Max Von Halstern

[Marvin]

Heh - very true. I throw what a couple locals have called "Diglach is a Rat-Bastard" combo -

I throw offside head shots - 1 and 2 and 1 and 2... disengage.... then 1 and 2 and 1 AAAAAAAAAAND 2 (POW!)
On the last shot, I let the blade return just a little bit further.... throws the timing off, blade never stops.

Guilty of this myself. When I pitched baseball, my best pitch was an off-speed curve. Throw 'em a few in the mid 80's and then throw one in the 50's. It's really fun to see someone swing when the ball is 10 feet out. Same principle applies here.

[Kilkenny]

Heh - very true. I throw what a couple locals have called "Diglach is a Rat-Bastard" combo -

I throw offside head shots - 1 and 2 and 1 and 2... disengage.... then 1 and 2 and 1 AAAAAAAAAAND 2 (POW!)
On the last shot, I let the blade return just a little bit further.... throws the timing off, blade never stops.

Guilty of this myself. When I pitched baseball, my best pitch was an off-speed curve. Throw 'em a few in the mid 80's and then throw one in the 50's. It's really fun to see someone swing when the ball is 10 feet out. Same principle applies here.

Any kind patterning works - but it can work both ways.

I teach "never do the same thing three times in a row". If it didn't work the first time, and it didn't work the second time, you shouldn't expect that it will on the third time - and by the third time, any competent opponent will recognize what you are doing and hammer you for it

So, I believe it is important not to be too predictable in creating a pattern, but at the same time, building an expectation in your opponent which you can the exploit by doing something different than expected is a *hugely* effective technique.

It runs the gamut from changeups in the speed of blows or combinations (Do you have a really good flat snap tot he onside head? does the other guy know it and twitch when he thinks he sees it coming? Put a hitch in your motion and you can hit him as the shield drops after he blocks your speed shot - that arrived late... ) to changes in your footwork (press in and go shield side with a pass and a deep wrap, break off and repeat, break off, press in and step weapon side with a slot shot)

Pretty much anything you can do that can build an expectation can be exploited.

In many fights, what determines the outcome is that Fighter A knew what Fighter B was going to do next.

[Payn]

A 301 level technique is to bring the "sweet spot"of the blade behind the plane of the shoulders. You can keep your hand in front of you still. My elbow is usually only coming back to touch my body (for onside shots) with my handcoming back roughly 6 inches while maintaining its altitude.

The 101 class is to bring everything completely back to the shoulder. Which is preferable. The 201 level class is to bring the hand back to the plane of your body.

[Blaine de Navarre]

I teach "never do the same thing three times in a row". If it didn't work the first time, and it didn't work the second time, you shouldn't expect that it will on the third time - and by the third time, any competent opponent will recognize what you are doing and hammer you for it

Interestingly, a high percentage of my "surprise" victories against better fighters are gained specifically by disregarding this rule - I think maybe "he can't be planning to throw the same shot again" may figure into it.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

It's all a chess game. Some of us just have more pieces to use....


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[Kilkenny]

I teach "never do the same thing three times in a row". If it didn't work the first time, and it didn't work the second time, you shouldn't expect that it will on the third time - and by the third time, any competent opponent will recognize what you are doing and hammer you for it

Interestingly, a high percentage of my "surprise" victories against better fighters are gained specifically by disregarding this rule - I think maybe "he can't be planning to throw the same shot again" may figure into it.

Yeah, well I am primarily a two sword fighter and one of my fundamental rules is you never, ever throw both swords to the same side at the same time, like, say, shield side head with one hand and shield side leg with the other, because all the other guy has to do is block the head shot and keeeel you as you hit his undefended leg ...

And I used exactly that combo to win a fight in a Crown Tournament against another knight - who froze, blocking neither shot. He would not do that one time in a hundred - but I got away with it that time. And since I know better and would never do it, especially not in Crown, he probably had a split second hesitation ....

Build expectations, then break them - even when it means violating a fundamental principal But don't rely on that kind working too often

[Baron Eirik]

... one of my fundamental rules is you never, ever throw both swords to the same side at the same time...

More like a guideline, really.

[Kilkenny]

... one of my fundamental rules is you never, ever throw both swords to the same side at the same time...

More like a guideline, really.

yeah but it really is one of the things I try to pound into people's heads (yes, sometimes literally) about two sword. You want them to be doing two different things at once, and you want to be closing the lines that open when you throw one shot with the next shot you throw.

Really at the base of my way of fighting two stick.

And even with it being that important to my style - I achieved astounding success - Once! - by breaking it.

[Said ibn-Ali]

Any kind patterning works - but it can work both ways.

I teach "never do the same thing three times in a row". If it didn't work the first time, and it didn't work the second time, you shouldn't expect that it will on the third time - and by the third time, any competent opponent will recognize what you are doing and hammer you for it

This is a rule that Myomoto Musashi teaches in his Book of the Five Rings. And Sun Tzu teaches it too in his Art of War.

It should no longer be a rule, but a LAW!

[Marvin]

It's all a chess game. Some of us just have more pieces to use....


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Ain't it the truth. Personally, my style is nothing but reflexes, old man tricks and serious anger management issues.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Any kind patterning works - but it can work both ways.

I teach "never do the same thing three times in a row". If it didn't work the first time, and it didn't work the second time, you shouldn't expect that it will on the third time - and by the third time, any competent opponent will recognize what you are doing and hammer you for it

Of course, if you know that they know it shouldn't work a third time.... of course they might know that you know that they know....

[Baron Eirik]

We're a knowledgeable group

[Simon/Jim]

Yes, indeed. Athanaric can hit that same spot fast and hard. It has something to do with him being one of the aforementioned "silver backs", but he is also very technical. Hip turn and foot work, can't say it enough. The big strong mutants can get away with less technique but us normal sized mere mortals have to have good mechanics. Then when the monsters like Athanaric have good technique...just fuggedaboudit!

[Athanaric]

Yes, indeed. Athanaric can hit that same spot fast and hard. It has something to do with him being one of the aforementioned "silver backs", but he is also very technical. Hip turn and foot work, can't say it enough. The big strong mutants can get away with less technique but us normal sized mere mortals have to have good mechanics. Then when the monsters like Athanaric have good technique...just fuggedaboudit!

Hey good to see your still alive brother. Saw you have a new kit...looks good!

[Simon/Jim]

Thanks! I'm still trying to find some of the edge I lost in Korea, but it's starting to come back. There is yet another new kit on the horizon. I'll be breaking it out soon.