Arming doublet/gambeson advice & info needed.

[Guy H.]

Hey all, I am interested in getting an early set of plate and brigandine. What I am wondering is, is how where the legs and arms pointed to a coat/gambeson? Im guessing the legs were pointed to a pourpoint? Where the gambesons pointed on the arms etc like a later pattern short arming doublet (as sold by historic ent which I have)? Or was there some other method of attachment? I want my kit to look like the attached pic.

[James B.]

Really all we can do is make an educated guess but from the few data points we have on arming garments I have never read of anyone wearing a separate garments to point legs too. How a Man shalt be Armed it just calls for a arming doublet, no shirt, no vest style garments underneath.

I have used the same arming garments for years and my legs, arms, and shoulder armor all point directly too it.

If I were going to point my legs separate from the arming garment for 14th c I would make a girdle; they used for hosen in that time frame.

[chef de chambre]

You want it to look a tudge better than that. The plates on one side should extend past the cover and foundation, and pass under slightly the plates on the other side when the armour is buckled together. Thus the cloth meets in the center, but the plates overlap under it.

Leaving a gap in the center of your chest or abdomen is a really, really bad idea, and not done in hiostorical composite defences.

Other than that, what James said, except I've yet to see any convicing documentation for some sort of belt holding leg armour up.

[Guy H.]

Well chef de chambre, I'm glad I posted the picture then. I added a different pic to the posting. Is this better & more like what you were describing? I like the looks of this one much more. I'm still interested in knowing how the spaulders and arms were attached to the gambeson.

[Albrechtthesilent]

Usually when I think I know what I'm talking about & speak up, I find out I'm wrong (which is good because I learn from it); so keep that in mind.

The new pic posted appears to have the spaulder integral with the arm harness (there's no strap on the lames of the spaulders running across the upper arm). In this case, they're pointed at the top of the spaulder.

If you want to wear a seperate spaulder, you'd need to point the arm harness at the top of the rearbrace as well.

If you wanted to utilize a slightly earlier arm harness, you could point the bottom of the rearbrace (in addition to the top) and the vambrace at the elbow. The elbow cop (couter) could be simply strapped on by a simple strap and buckle, or strapped as such & pointed through holes in the vambrace & rearbrace to the arming garment.

Albrecht

[Guy H.]

OK, but where does all that stuff get pointed to, to hold it on your body?? Is it the gambeson? If they did not use a pourpoint for the legs, then how did they attach legs to a long gambeson? Do the legs get pointed to a belt of some kind....like a c-belt or something like a gambeson with arming points sewn in like a arming doublett? I understand what your saying about how armour gets pointed to other armour parts, but where does all the armour get pointed to, to keep it on your body?

[chef de chambre]

THe earliest Johanes Hall document regarding 'how a man schalle be armed' described a seperate sleeveless (?) pourpoint - presumably for the legs. The document dates to the 1430's.

In as complete an armour as you are looking at, a gambeson would be an encumberance - think of gambesons as a seperate armour, not a foundation garment in full armour of the era you are looking at (1390-1400, from the armour style).

[Kel Rekuta]

THe earliest Johanes Hall document regarding 'how a man schalle be armed' described a seperate sleeveless (?) pourpoint - presumably for the legs. The document dates to the 1430's.

In as complete an armour as you are looking at, a gambeson would be an encumberance - think of gambesons as a seperate armour, not a foundation garment in full armour of the era you are looking at (1390-1400, from the armour style).

Very interesting Bob! Could I trouble you for a link or some direction to that document?

Never mind. I found it. The Hastings MS was the only one I could recall. Forgot about the earlier one.

Also, when you were discussing cloth fabric overlap earlier, was that related to split front corrazzina or where the sides meet on a cuirass and back? Or both? Please elaborate.

Thanks!

I would appreciate a bit of your time on this, when convenient.

[Athanaric]

Just to back up what other have said here...for a rig like is pictured above I would go with something like this... http://historicenterprises.com/doublet- ... th=101_135

However if you are going to go with an earlier 14th rig that is less complete and use a padded gambeson your choices are either to make the gambeson shorter and still point the legs to it or have a separate leg suspension system (either the vest like purpoint or a C belt). In either case the arms and spaulders point to the arming garment (whatever type you go with).

Athanaric (who took a huge crash course in 14th cent armour gearing up for BOTN)

[Guy H.]

The Historic Ent. doublet is what I have. Glad to see I can use if for most any armour I have. I still get that downward tugging felling when i put legs on it. The waist hem is as tight as it can be but I still get pulled forward a bit. So I am going to buy a c-belt & see how that works. Thanks for all the help guys & I appreciate the reply.

[RandallMoffett]

Bob,

I disagree, at least in part. I think we have a great degree of evidence into the 15th century for an aketon or gambeson under full plate used in text. Once again Monstrelet who was putting down his chronicles toward the mid 15th states the French equipment in the mid to late 100 years war for a fully armed man-at-arms as being a gambeson, hauberk and full plate harness. Going to the period in question we have Bertrand du Guesclin's chronicle that has the same set up. Now that said I think this is pretty much a terminology question as the padded arming Jacket of Johanes and gambesons in period could easily be the same thing as Monstrelet's gambeson, just more developed. Now if modern persons want to make these separate items they can but medieval ones did not.

RPM

[Guy H.]

Ok, so it would just be a padded arming jacket/gambeson type coat with points?

[Black Swan Designs]

Do you have greaves to hold the cuisses up from the bottom, or are you depending on the arming doublet to hold the leg harness up from the top?

Gwen

[Guy H.]

Hey there Gwen. No greaves yet. The new set of legs will have them but nothing now. I'm guessing thats where the "tugging" feeling is coming from? oh, did you get a chance to invoice me on the custom dagged coat?