Helm Fit / Injuries?

[Lucian Ro]

As I refine my harness for BOTN/HMB styled combat I’ve begun to rethink my helm, especially in recent light of Duke Felix’s concussions.
I have a period linen liner for my 12-gauge mild bascinet, but with it in the helm it’s almost painfully snug when attempting to don the helmet. When it is finally on it fits comfortably but getting it there is the issue.
My thought process is I’m thinking that my helm is too tight side-to-side and I’m worried that in being too tight it might open me up to the greater possibility of injury and with a record of three concussions under my belt I’m not looking to add a fourth.
I also realize a heavier gauge helm will help transfer less impact so I’m thinking, at the very least, that that is a necessity.
Should I simply go with a wider (and obviously heavier) helm?

Anyone have similar experience/issues/insights/input they wish to share?

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Lucian,

I am far from an expert, but in addition to padding, there is the simple issue of MASS. All things being equal, a heavier helmet will absorb a lot more impact than a lighter one, especially if the material they are made with is particularly elastic such as stainless and spring. While we all hate dented helmets, a dented helmet became so because some of the energy that was on its way to your brain, was absorbed by the metal, converted into heat and pressure, and this "intercepted".

I am sure there are people -like Nissan- here FAR more qualified than me, but there are two types of collision, plastic (where there is permanent deformation of one of the items colliding) and elastic, (where one or both of the items deforms temporarily while absorbing the energy of the collision, only to release it back like a spring. [examples are the collision of a ball of plasticine against a hard floor, and the collision of a tennis ball against the wall)

There is a reason why the people that fought in the BOTN used suspension systems instead of padding, (and why construction helmets use an inner suspension). You may want to consider evaluating your helmet needs not as what you have, but as what will keep your noggin safe. Whatever choices you make, remember a helmet can be replaced, but a brain is a bit harder.

Talk to people that fought in the BOTN, as well as armorers that specialize in hemets. test a few if you can.

Best of luck and stay safe.

Glaukos

[Athanaric]

Lucian, after donning your helm is it tight around your temples? If it is then you will need a new helm. Also, I can not stress enough how important a suspension liner is....I took multiple pollaxe strikes to the back of the head and was unphased by them. My helm is 12g stainless and with my period suspension liner is just a bit lose on me. I snug it up with a padded arming cap.

[Aaron]

I have two "flight kit" helms. The great helm is 7.8 lbs and the kettle helm is 13.6 lbs. I put the great helm on my pell to armour it. The kettle helm flys with me if I have somewhere I can fight.

I've never had an issue with either my kettle helm or armet. The armet fits very well, but not "snuggly" but well enough that without flipping a couple of levers, I can't get it off my head.

-Aaron

[Tom B.]

Lucian, after donning your helm is it tight around your temples? If it is then you will need a new helm. Also, I can not stress enough how important a suspension liner is....I took multiple pollaxe strikes to the back of the head and was unphased by them. My helm is 12g stainless and with my period suspension liner is just a bit lose on me. I snug it up with a padded arming cap.

Would you mind providing a few more details on your set-up?

1. When worn how much of a suspension gap is there between the liner and the helm?
2. What are the liner design specifics? Materials, thickness, etc.
3. Any pictures available?

Thanks,
Tom

[Athanaric]

I will answer as best I can...

The gap depends on what part of the top of the helm as my bacinet is a back point. Closer to the front of my head about half an inch...at the back point nearly 2 inches.

The liner is linen with natural (not sure if cotton or linen) batting, same with my arming cap. Thickness on the liner is a bit more then half an inch.

Here are some pics. Let me know if you need anything else.

Lucian, after donning your helm is it tight around your temples? If it is then you will need a new helm. Also, I can not stress enough how important a suspension liner is....I took multiple pollaxe strikes to the back of the head and was unphased by them. My helm is 12g stainless and with my period suspension liner is just a bit lose on me. I snug it up with a padded arming cap.

Would you mind providing a few more details on your set-up?

1. When worn how much of a suspension gap is there between the liner and the helm?
2. What are the liner design specifics? Materials, thickness, etc.
3. Any pictures available?

Thanks,
Tom

[Athanaric]

and more pics

[Bjarn]

I have had similar issues with concussions from over 20 years of various sports and martial arts and repeated hits to the head. Basically I can not have too many more or it will end my fun or severely limit my ability to participate. I had a similar dilemma with a helmet that fit pretty snug, it fits like a glove in fact , but it was missing some mass with the amount of hits I was taking weekly and it was definitely taking it's toll. I found that added weight such as an camail or aventail affixed to my helmet helped , not only did the weight but the draping of the chain (which extends across my shoulders), combined with my gorget and a padded mantel ( about a thickness of a fighting gambeson) which I wear underneath the aventail allow the distribution of energy to my shoulders from hits and dulls the impact quite a lot.

I imagine there is a reason football helmets are so heavy , and if anyone can remember back to their youth , they had those foam neck rolls that they would wear in a very similar fashion to distribute the weight and force of impact away from the neck and head in to the shoulders. Taking away and limiting the jarring of the impact by these steps and redistributing the energy , combined with the added weight to my helm solved a majority of my problems.

Bjarn

[Said ibn-Ali]

I imagine there is a reason football helmets are so heavy , and if anyone can remember back to their youth , they had those foam neck rolls that they would wear in a very similar fashion to distribute the weight and force of impact away from the neck and head in to the shoulders. Taking away and limiting the jarring of the impact by these steps and redistributing the energy , combined with the added weight to my helm solved a majority of my problems.

Bjarn

Cant say I agree with the football helmets being that heavy. They are actually REALLY light. They are light enough to keep from weighing down the user and strong enough to prevent head injuries. The neck roll was there to reduce the shock of head on hits and neck compression and folding the head back. I think my complete football pad set weighed less than 10lbs with helmet.

[Gaston de Clermont]

I took some hard shots from poleaxes and falchions, but weathered the storm OK. My liner design is a little different than Athanaric's. I wouldn't really describe mine as a suspension system. It's just padding. Stitching it to the edge of the helm like the originals did keeps it from shifting around. You can see pictures here:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... ework.html

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Gaston:

Would that liner work for a Windrose MTO Norman helm if you could only really stitch it to the bottom?

[Sean Powell]

Coming to this late but it strikes me you have a different problem to consider. If your helm is that tight getting on and off then it will be that tight for the EMT's to get off if you black out from a concussion. Heaven forbid you go down with a neck injury and need to be extracted. Get a helm you can be removed from in relative comfort.

Sean

[Lucian Ro]

As someone who works in orthopedics and trauma you'd think that that might have occurred to me, but, nope, never did. Thanks for the insight, Sean.

Coming to this late but it strikes me you have a different problem to consider. If your helm is that tight getting on and off then it will be that tight for the EMT's to get off if you black out from a concussion. Heaven forbid you go down with a neck injury and need to be extracted. Get a helm you can be removed from in relative comfort.

Sean

[Gaston de Clermont]

Sorry for the delayed response, Ivan- There are only a few padding/lining/suspension systems that seem to have been used in medieval helmets, and they all look roughly like what Athanaric and I have posted. They're either stitched to the edges of the helm (look closely at the edges of surviving Norman conicals and bascinets), or attached to the base of the skull (see the big fancy rivets on sallets.)

[Robert Downey]

Hey my friend. I wanted to comment on this really quick, as this is pretty significant...

The majority of the helms I saw being used by the primary teams were using what in the SCA would be considered oversized helms. They fill that extra space up with really effective methods of padding. My bascinet is "perfect" for SCA, but needs about twice the space padding wise for HMB.

I am planning on replacing my helm with an oversize helm, like they do. That will also solve the problem with brow cuts, which was pretty much ubiquitous for our team.

As a rough rule of thumb, I think you would be served well by taking the "normal" sca padding space in helms, and doubling it. Your sure as heck not going to get in trouble with TOO much padding....

yours
Rob

[Murdock]

my helm is 13 lbs with the ti anventail and grill

17ish with the real visor and rivited steel aventail, iirc the helmet itself started as 10 ga 1050 steel

It's not heat treated but in a decade plus or heavy use it has one shallow dent in it.

I think it would be OK for boton but i'd appreciate thoughts.

[Lucian Ro]

Oversized-helm with extra padding it is, thank you Robert and all -- this was a very important question so I appreciate everyone's input.

[Aaron]

People have called my armet "oversized" for a long time. I have a karate helmet under the steel. I plan on replacing the padding with some very up-to-date padding and "faux" historical padding.

-Aaron

[Athanaric]

my helm is 13 lbs with the ti anventail and grill

17ish with the real visor and rivited steel aventail, iirc the helmet itself started as 10 ga 1050 steel

It's not heat treated but in a decade plus or heavy use it has one shallow dent in it.

I think it would be OK for boton but i'd appreciate thoughts.

As long as it is padded well you should be good...It will pick up new dents.

[Tom B.]

my helm is 13 lbs with the ti anventail and grill

17ish with the real visor and rivited steel aventail, iirc the helmet itself started as 10 ga 1050 steel

It's not heat treated but in a decade plus or heavy use it has one shallow dent in it.

I think it would be OK for boton but i'd appreciate thoughts.

Why couldn't you heat treat it now?

Tom

[Murdock]

From what i have been told the metal heat treats and the welds do not.

This can lead to failure of the helmet, i'm not risking my helmet until i know for sure.

[Albrechtthesilent]

It would depend on the material used on the welds (what kind of rod or wire was used).
If you don't know or can't find that out, you've got a gamble on your hands.

Regardless of what the weld material is, what I've heard is that you "should" anneal the whole piece prior to heat treating a welded piece. Way above my hobby armouring experience level, so I'm not speaking from experience or practice here. This is just what I had read somewhere online regarding welding and heat treating 4130 (with the appropriate filler material). The welding and heat treating of it being used in aircraft parts, they might be being more thorough than is strictly required for our uses. But plainly, I don't KNOW.

The gamble is whether the treatment would leave the weld brittle. This is coupled with the nature of the stress to the weld (if the plates would experience stress pulling or shearing the seam). Might work okay for SCA, probably not a reasonable gamble for BotN in my humble, hobby armourer whose read stuff online opinion (i.e. not much weight behind my words, just what makes sense to me).

If you're attached to the helm, I wouldn't try it. Make another either in one piece, or with known heat treatable weld filler that jives with the sheet you use after reasearching the method required to treat it (what works in 4130 may not be the same for 1050, obviously). You can sell your current helm as is. If you goof up the weld attempting to treat it...you're SOL.

10 gauge 1050 spring...damn. That should be a tank. Too bad it wasn't originally treated.

Albrecht

[Vladimir]

Doesn't Icefalcon carry a specially designed helmet padding that is more than equal to 1/2 inch closed cell while being a bit thinner and still fulfilling the "or equivalent rule?

Sounds like just the thing for a tight helmet.

[Ingelri]

From what i have been told the metal heat treats and the welds do not.

This can lead to failure of the helmet, i'm not risking my helmet until i know for sure.

I'm not having any issues with my 16g 1050 welded helmet thus far. As long as your welds are sound you shouldn't have any issues with the difference in materials. In fact, since you are pooling the two materials together when you weld there likely isn't as much difference between the two as you might think.

[ulfhirtha]

I have been very interested in this as the research on CTE and the cumulative effect of "micro-concussions" builds, and which it seems our practices would also render us susceptible, and wondered if there had been any research -or at least anecdotal evidence- on it and ways to minimize that risk. This sure is fun but it isn't worth damaging my brain for it.

[raito]

I am planning on replacing my helm with an oversize helm, like they do. That will also solve the problem with brow cuts, which was pretty much ubiquitous for our team.

Rob,

Many times brow cuts can be prevented by using a 4-point strap. In SCA, usually the brow cut is NOT from the padding in the helm being compressed to the point where the helm contacts the skin, but by the helm rotating downward on the head. With a 4-point strap, the lower straps prevent this from happening.