[SCA] Rules on swords with two thrusting tips

[MalcolmdeMoffat]

So i recently saw a person with two thrusting tips on his/her sword. The sword appears to be weilded two handed and is probably less than 60" [1.52m]. I assume it is legal in places, but i've never seen anything of the kind. would like to hear what you think.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

I assume you are talking about a butspike? If so then it is now legal. As always it is good to inform your opponent.

[Hrolfr]

No different than a buttspike on a polearm.

They must be on two-handed weapons (longer than 48"), not allowed on single handed swords.

Usually only good to the face (If I employ the 'pommel' on my great sword against you, and I don't get your face, I would ask you not to take the blow.) Of course, that is a convention that most follow (or it might be a Middle Kingdom connvention).

[Thomas MacFinn]

Check your kingdom rules. Some kingdoms have specific rules on what can be on a polearm vs a great sword. For example, most of the two-spike great swords that I have seen didn't have a metal crossguard (or a metal pommel, obviously).

[InsaneIrish]

Buttspikes on Greatswords is legal, depending on what kingdom you are in. Calontir does NOT allow them on Greatswords.

On a personal note, I find them ugly and pretty non period for anything other than a Judicial Combat weapon.

[Garick]

I have a "thrusting tip" on my greatsword. I don't consider it a buttspike, though. It's not a spike at all, which I agree would be unperiod. It is a pommel. Lots of period manuals have pommel strikes in them. I definitely only consider it good to unarmored areas, as it's not a sharp pointy thing, it's a heavy bonky thing.

[InsaneIrish]

I have a "thrusting tip" on my greatsword. I don't consider it a buttspike, though. It's not a spike at all, which I agree would be unperiod. It is a pommel. Lots of period manuals have pommel strikes in them. I definitely only consider it good to unarmored areas, as it's not a sharp pointy thing, it's a heavy bonky thing.

Unfortunately the SCA combat system does not include a ruleset for "face only pommel strikes.
Anyone that can put a pommel "tip" on their greatsword can now get a "killing blow" by poking someone in the gut with their pommel.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

I'd rather have a balanced greatsword.

[kenrickb]

By convention in the East, pommel strikes from a great sword are only effective when hitting the face using the boundaries outlined for a face thrust.

Kenric rex

I have a "thrusting tip" on my greatsword. I don't consider it a buttspike, though. It's not a spike at all, which I agree would be unperiod. It is a pommel. Lots of period manuals have pommel strikes in them. I definitely only consider it good to unarmored areas, as it's not a sharp pointy thing, it's a heavy bonky thing.

Unfortunately the SCA combat system does not include a ruleset for "face only pommel strikes.
Anyone that can put a pommel "tip" on their greatsword can now get a "killing blow" by poking someone in the gut with their pommel.

[InsaneIrish]

By convention in the East, pommel strikes from a great sword are only effective when hitting the face using the boundaries outlined for a face thrust.

Kenric rex

I apologized. I should have clarified.
When I was referring to "SCA" I was talking specifically about the Society(tm) combat conventions.

[Garick]

I have a "thrusting tip" on my greatsword. I don't consider it a buttspike, though. It's not a spike at all, which I agree would be unperiod. It is a pommel. Lots of period manuals have pommel strikes in them. I definitely only consider it good to unarmored areas, as it's not a sharp pointy thing, it's a heavy bonky thing.

Unfortunately the SCA combat system does not include a ruleset for "face only pommel strikes.
Anyone that can put a pommel "tip" on their greatsword can now get a "killing blow" by poking someone in the gut with their pommel.

If they want to be cheese-d*cks, they can. Fortunately for us, most people don't come to the SCA to be cheesy rules-lawyers, and we are usually successful at influencing those who do via social pressure. I'd rather not remove a bunch of safe period combat techniques just because someone *could* be a jerk. You can't legislate out jerks anyway. You can only convert them or discourage their participation.

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

My longsword has a thrusting tip, a padded smashy pommel, and rattan quillons with thrusting tips.

I half sword like a bandit, and it feels GOOD.

Admittedly, the quillon thrusting tips are usually only good as a threat, but it is fun to see people react to them when they suddenly realize how close to their face it is.

[Noe]

Our local rules are that pommels and wooden haft ends are blunts that only affect open face or no armour situation. They marked with eitehr a white cross or brown base tape. no problem so far.

[twoswords]

Buttspikes on Greatswords is legal, depending on what kingdom you are in. Calontir does NOT allow them on Greatswords.

On a personal note, I find them ugly and pretty non period for anything other than a Judicial Combat weapon.

I researched the issue of "butt spikes" or any form of crushing/slashing/piercing device on the grip end of two handed swords when I was KEM for Drachenwald and the Kingdom was to take a decision on this. I found a multitude of different options from a large geographical range within Europe and can state with some certainty that they were widely used and not restricted to judicial combat. I do not have any of the research left as my computer died and took all files with it, but it is still out on the internet if anyone would like to research it again.

[Said ibn-Ali]

If you cant kill someone with the first 4ft of the blade your doing it wrong.

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

With my style of greatsword fighting, I actually prefer not to have the smashing pommel. For two reasons:

1) I get a lot more benefit out of the counterweight on the bottom, particularly with feints, twitches and the overhead 'helicopter combos'

2) If I find myself in a position where my hands and hilt are in position to deliver a blow from the pommel, it means I made a mistake.

While the thrusting/smashing tips on pommels, quillions and all are cool, and certainly historic, I think the effort it takes to learn to use them effectively in SCA heavy is better spent on footwork, range control, feints and speed.

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

If you cant kill someone with the first 4ft of the blade your doing it wrong.

I can think of a few period swordmasters who might take issue with this.

That first four feet is just there to keep their eyes on the shiny part while I get close enough to smash their face in.

Hell, sometimes I'll fight with my longsword gripped in one hand upside down by the blade or "cruciform". Not often, or when I really want to win, mind you, but it can be useful in certain scenarios.

I am addicted to the longsword for just this reason; it is a complete weapon. It can fill the role of most other weapons, and while it may rarely have an overt advantage over any weapon style, there is no weapon style that it simply cannot beat.

It is an iconic weapon, so rooted in our western psyche that it manifests in film, television, literature, and also every video game ever produced apparently, even most of the Sci-Fi ones. We have wielded the sword since time immemorial (I do love hyperbole) and as we have used it, it has changed and morphed until the longsword emerged, designed to stab, slash, crush, pierce, trip, and lever your opponent into submission/death.

While the thrusting/smashing tips on pommels, quillions and all are cool, and certainly historic, I think the effort it takes to learn to use them effectively in SCA heavy is better spent on footwork, range control, feints and speed.

I would say this depends on the person. A similar topic would be "Sport armour vs period armour". Some people will focus on their game and wear the lightest gear available, and some will only be satisfied with their victory if it is won under the most gruelingly period conditions possible i.e. in fully period heavy gear with chain etc

Utilizing quillon and pommel strikes has actually helped me develop footwork, range control and speed specifically. When you use a weapon that large that close to someone, you need to be able to work quickly and efficiently. If you do not, after all, it is not hard for an opponent to take advantage.

It is also worth mentioning that a lot of people never train to fight AGAINST period longsword techniques. I show people my thrusting tips but they always look shocked when I actually face-pop them with the pommel.

[InsaneIrish]

I researched the issue of "butt spikes" or any form of crushing/slashing/piercing device on the grip end of two handed swords when I was KEM for Drachenwald and the Kingdom was to take a decision on this. I found a multitude of different options from a large geographical range within Europe and can state with some certainty that they were widely used and not restricted to judicial combat. I do not have any of the research left as my computer died and took all files with it, but it is still out on the internet if anyone would like to research it again.

I try to distinguish between a spike and a smashing pommel.
I would love to see any evidence that a spiked pommel on a greatsword was used for war and not just for Judicial Combat.
Smashing pommels are different as they are basically just a pommel that you smash someone with.

[Fearghus Macildubh]

I don't used a smashing pommel on my two handed sword, mostly because I haven't lived in kingdoms where it was legal. But looking at the evidence from the manuals, it's like Sigismund posted, the masters considered the entire sword a weapon. Certain parts of the sword may only have been effective in certain situations against certain parts of the body. Putting thrusties on the pommel and quillions allows us to mimic that, if we target accordingly.

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

I don't used a smashing pommel on my two handed sword, mostly because I haven't lived in kingdoms where it was legal. But looking at the evidence from the manuals, it's like Sigismund posted, the masters considered the entire sword a weapon. Certain parts of the sword may only have been effective in certain situations against certain parts of the body. Putting thrusties on the pommel and quillions allows us to mimic that, if we target accordingly.

The hard part is pulling it off without messing someone up. Jamming quillons into someone's armpit will end the fight, but not in the way that we want. Knowing when to pull the power and when to give a good pop is half the battle, since so many techniques are aimed at either A.) soft sensitive parts of the body or B.) areas that are generally weak spots in armour. (Or in many cases both)

Some techniques translate, some do not. In any case, I find it enriching to use the weapon to its fullest potential within the confines of the SCA ruleset.