Quillions with thrusting tips on a great sword

[freiman the minstrel]

Dude, it's just kinda stupid.

[Nissan Maxima]

You gonna be at Pennsic? Lets do a couple of passes and you can educate me.

[Mykaru]

Asoph (the SEM) was there, you should have talked to him. I wouldn't worry too much about it, he's very much of the "you signed the waiver, now put on your big boy/girl pants and STFU" mindset for whiners.

[uwhguy]

All I know is she had enough head injury that she was knocked out of the war for the rest of the week and couldnt fight because of dizziness, but she is very tough and did not want to be seen as whining. We fought together in the 5 man and she didnt even mention anything to me. It wasnt until that night, around the fire, that I learned anything had happened (and that was from her Knight).

[Tibbie Croser]

Was her helmet or padding not protective enough?

[Vigulfr]

So, this might be little off topic, but I have been looking at Greatsword Fighting techniques and have found that a large portion of them grip the lower portion of the blade just above the crossguard with the main hand and the off hand just under the crossguard or where comfortable, and either using it as a longsword, or inverting the blade and smashing with the pommel. This brings up 2 questions.

A) What are the rules/conventions for gripping the blade of a cutting weapon? (I remember reading something about it, but can't find it in the handbook)

B) Is putting a thrusting tip on the pommel legal, and if so how would this be accomplished?

[uwhguy]

A) is legal in most kingdoms. In some, you have to put a tape ricasso that you cannot strike with, but effectively it is the same thing.

B) In some Kingdoms. Not in Atlantia. Do it the same way you would the tip of the sword.

[Tally]

someone with a hat or belt will say "That's not the way we do things" and tell you to knock it off. They'll probably be offended that you would even consider the idea.

Since Nissan is involved, I would like to hear that exchange.

[Nissan Maxima]

someone with a hat or belt will say "That's not the way we do things" and tell you to knock it off. They'll probably be offended that you would even consider the idea.

Since Nissan is involved, I would like to hear that exchange.

The hat belt guy actually seemed embarassed to ask and was polite so I played nice. Frankly the other end of that sword was the real warcrime and later I actually broke someone's wooden shield in half with it in three blows. So I still had fun even after they rained on my parade.

[Caius705]

I can attest to the Truth of that statement. Im proud to say I got a nice little pop from it. I was glad I'd put spaulders on my coat of plates

[Baron Logan]

I dont see what the big deal is as long as the thrust is delivered with appropriate force for the given target area.

[Cellach_macChormach]

So, this might be little off topic, but I have been looking at Greatsword Fighting techniques and have found that a large portion of them grip the lower portion of the blade just above the crossguard with the main hand and the off hand just under the crossguard or where comfortable, and either using it as a longsword, or inverting the blade and smashing with the pommel. This brings up 2 questions.

A) What are the rules/conventions for gripping the blade of a cutting weapon? (I remember reading something about it, but can't find it in the handbook)

B) Is putting a thrusting tip on the pommel legal, and if so how would this be accomplished?

My understanding of the current rules are that you are not permitted to grab the blade of a cutting weapon. Some people have put a section of a ricasso above their crossguard so that they can grab higher on the weapon.

You can have a thrusting tip on a pommel - provided that the only thing below the thrusting tip is rattan. It follows the same rules as all great weapon thrusting tips. When you go to build a great weapon come by and I'll help you with the weapon construction.

[olaf haraldson]

You are forbidden to grab the cutting portion of an OPPONENTS blade...

My understanding of the current rules are that you are not permitted to grab the blade of a cutting weapon. Some people have put a section of a ricasso above their crossguard so that they can grab higher on the weapon.

[Cellach_macChormach]

You are forbidden to grab the cutting portion of an OPPONENTS blade...

My understanding of the current rules are that you are not permitted to grab the blade of a cutting weapon. Some people have put a section of a ricasso above their crossguard so that they can grab higher on the weapon.

I do see in the rules where that is explicitly said. I haven't seen any where that states that you are allowed to grab the blade of your own weapon. Further, a few years back we had an experiment about half swording (grabbing your own blade). You don't normally have an experiment for a legal technique. I don't believe a decision was ever reached about it. When I stepped up as regional marshal this is one of the questions I had and I was never given a very good answer.

[Vigulfr]

It bothers me because while yes, many historical examples of great swords have a small bit above the man cross guard that is safe to hold on to I don't want to lose that blade realestate, unless there is no tactical advantage to having that extra 6 or so inches of blade.

[Vladimir]

I don't know about other kingdoms, but I have been told by both marshals and royals that grabbing the blade of your own sword is illegal in Atlantia.

[olaf haraldson]

IV. THE USE OF WEAPONS AND SHIELDS
A. Weapons shall be used in accordance with their design. For example, spears may only be used for thrusting, axes for striking along the edge of the blade, etc..
1. Only weapons approved for thrusting may be used for that purpose. Feinting as if to thrust with a weapon not approved for that purpose is prohibited. Before any bout where a thrusting weapon is used, the opponent and marshals shall be informed that such a weapon is on the field, and the thrusting tip shall be shown to the opponent.
2. The blade of an opponent’s weapon may not be grasped at any time, nor may it be trapped in contact with the fighter’s body as a means of preventing the opponent’s use of the weapon. Armored hands may grasp the haft of an opponent’s weapon.

It doesn't say you CAN grab your own... but it doesn't say you can't.
In the East:

Great swords may be used in a
half sword manner in that one may grasp their own blade to throw blows or thrusts and may grasp an opponents blade during a bind
in which neither blade is in motion. Great swords may have a thrusting tip on the pommel of the weapon, such tips may only be used
for telling blows when thrown at the face as a face thrust

You are forbidden to grab the cutting portion of an OPPONENTS blade...

My understanding of the current rules are that you are not permitted to grab the blade of a cutting weapon. Some people have put a section of a ricasso above their crossguard so that they can grab higher on the weapon.

I do see in the rules where that is explicitly said. I haven't seen any where that states that you are allowed to grab the blade of your own weapon. Further, a few years back we had an experiment about half swording (grabbing your own blade). You don't normally have an experiment for a legal technique. I don't believe a decision was ever reached about it. When I stepped up as regional marshal this is one of the questions I had and I was never given a very good answer.

[Konstantin the Red]

. . . I don't want to lose that blade realestate, unless there is no tactical advantage to having that extra 6 or so inches of blade.

There isn't. Not there within a given length of blade. An extra six in overall length of the weapon might give advantage in ambushing an opponent in a dissimilar-weapons bastard-sword fight, where you've got just a critical trifle more range, but that's about it.

The German/Landsknecht Zweihänder sword of the other end of period from your twelfth-century man has a very lengthy ricasso almost half the blade length, for gripping and manipulating -- and guarding you just fine. A Zweihänder is basically a polearm with some extra bits sticking out. Any greatsword fight is a lovely thing to watch.

[Edward of Blackthorn]

I have a 6 foot great sword the quillions made from hard and soft foam (it is softer than the rubber hammer heads already in use) we have been fighting in the back yard with it for 2 years with out an issue (we tend to grapple and hit harder in the back yard than at practice) the 3 inch piece of rattan it is attached to is another matter.

nugg

[Nissan Maxima]

This is the scrap in question:

http://www.bogpages.com/SCA-photographs ... &k=StKCCjK

[laevus]

I was in on the Caidan halfswording experiment that duke Guillaume ran a few years ago, and which allowed quillion thrusts (stipulating of course that no metal could be used in construction of the quillions) and lower own-blade grabbing, in which- to my knowledge, there were no safety issues reported, however as a standard technique it wasnt and isnt allowed in our kingdom outside of the experimental rules (which were never applied to melee).

That said, it was a ton of fun, and I've seen nothing to indicate that it was any more dangerous than any standard thrusting tips.

[Rayner]

Tascius, if the blow is good through an open face helm it is good. Except on special occasion, we don't play "armour as worn" in the SCA.

Remember folks, you can decide to take a blow if you wish. The technique happened, this looks like fun. If I had an open face ie bar grill helm I would take a quillion shot from this sword. If I had some eye slot type helm, no. If there is no clear rule on a thing, go with what you think is right. Discuss later if you feel a need. I know rules are important but they can make things stale.

[Nissan Maxima]

All I know is she had enough head injury that she was knocked out of the war for the rest of the week and couldnt fight because of dizziness, but she is very tough and did not want to be seen as whining. We fought together in the 5 man and she didnt even mention anything to me. It wasnt until that night, around the fire, that I learned anything had happened (and that was from her Knight).

So there are a pile of pictures of her fighting on Thursday in the field battle. Her knight was clearly mistaken.