Let's say I have a piece of 2¼" rattan. I shave it down to a carved boarspear (thickness 1½", blade width 1¾" and lugs 2").
Would this be illegal in Meridies? If the lugs were 1¾"?
If you don't own a marshal gauge, borrow one. Existing marshal gauges may be used to test this rule. As I understand it, 1 31/32" would be legal. I never trust every single marshal gauge out there for that last 1/32"
Hrolfr wrote:Will this affect split rattan construction?
Very good question. I repeated this question on the Facebook post that started this.
On the opposite side, I'd posit that if a kingdom's standards are such that a normal person can't hit hard enough with 1.25", that kingdom's calibration standards are too high.
Personal or kingdom insults are in fact unnecessary as my friend, his Grace said.
This should simply if anything be a technical discussion on the merits if the "weapon". I don't see the point of the emotion being expressed.
"Shaved ratan has a flatter profile that helps determine edge by shape rather than only by marking"
One reason I do it.
"Shave ratan has a better aesthetic (to many people)"
I agree, esp the ones that Master Erik sells and spiffs up.
"Shaved ratan has reduced mode 1 flexure and widening 'sweet spot' strikning positions"
Well honestly, I just hate the bouncy feeling of minimal rattan, esp when it's been used a bit it starts to feel all ropy and flexy to me. Course about then I break it shortly after.
"Shaved ratan requires less followthrough to deliver power, but, by being heavier overal, requires more sustained energy to wield. (think peak to average power ratio reduction)"
I don't have that prob, my thicker swords are shorter, they weight about the same, maybe a half lb more than my longer thinner swords depending on the individual swords being compared. IN fact several of my 2 inch swords weigh what the real "counter part" weighs as opposed to the weight of a plastic cup and shaved minimal rattan. But that's not necessarily relevant.
"Shaved ratan allows tapering which shifts center of balance toward the hand, improving handling" Yes to tapering, I dunno about "improved" but they can balance more like a sword and less like a stick. Course I also can get good balance out of minimal rattan.
"If the weapon is heavy enough, it can be used to more eaily blow through insufficenent parries and land blows which should be accepted because they land with sufficient force." This was actually why I first got my first war bat, I wanted to parry pole arms better with sword blocks at Pennsic, my min rattan had broken and I wanted something that would stop the shot better.
My other reason...I destroy rattan constantly. We're a moderately high calibration kingdom, and I fight _often_. This was a down week and I fought 2 days, on an up week it can be 6 days in a week. The minimal rattan, lasts maybe 8 days out skin off, 10 skin on. The 2 inch lasts me a few months, I usually snap the handles off but the "blade" lasts just fine. Saves me money. Moast of my swords are now about 1.5 skin on with some shaping, I like the speed of a 1.25 skinned, they just don't last long enough for as much as I get to play.
Northshield has several 3 inch carved down maces, had 2 inch planed down upadded polearms, lots of fish bats and war swords. We consider this normal, as do of our neighbors afaik. We have not had a similar rash of injuries from playing this way in the same time frame. I would know....I get the reports for Northshield.
Legislating a ban on a stick style from a single, or even a few injuries in an interkingdom war seems to smack of overreaction. It's a stick, it didn't hit you, the fighter did. Based on my exp this type of injury is most llikely a result of fighting with an armour failure, or insufficient construction (rules violation) or someone is using excessive force (rules violation), or both.
As much if of the SCA plays with rattan of this style on a regular basis at what is generally accepted to be a higher force level than in question without significant injury I think the evidence would support the rattan not being the problem.
This is akin to banning a legal item because it was used in 2 illegal actions instead of acting on the 2 illegal actions. Even when done with best intentions, it doesn't fix a problem.
IMO any injury is most likely from accidental excessive force in melee conditions in an interkingdom war with differing armoring norms and kingdom calibration traditions.
If they wanna play their way, and ban said construction, they will and it's no skin off anyone elses nose. It does seem to be an over reaction based on the same items use in the rest of the SCA safely.
and again this should be open to POLITE discussion as with any other rules change or discussion.
Morgan wrote:On the opposite side, I'd posit that if a kingdom's standards are such that a normal person can't hit hard enough with 1.25", that kingdom's calibration standards are too high.
ooooo ... thats an interesting statement right there.
-- Sir Cathal
Kingdom of the Sun ... Atenveldt
Argent semy of lozenges, a bordure sable.
Sean Reisz wrote: The rule says, "unless the striking surface has at least 1/2 inch (12.7mm) progressive give." The split in split rattan glaives provides flex and give. If the split provides enough give, then it qualifies.
Morgan wrote:On the opposite side, I'd posit that if a kingdom's standards are such that a normal person can't hit hard enough with 1.25", that kingdom's calibration standards are too high.
ooooo ... thats an interesting statement right there.
Nissan, I know that normal guy . . . he is the one who came out to a couple practices because he met a girl in school and she was into the SCA. He tried a couple of practices, thought, "wow, these guys are not normal", and then quit.
Sean Reisz wrote: The rule says, "unless the striking surface has at least 1/2 inch (12.7mm) progressive give." The split in split rattan glaives provides flex and give. If the split provides enough give, then it qualifies.
So it is objective, then.....
Sean F. Ryan
Writer's Tears is comparable to an angel standing on the edge of a cloud peeing on the back of your tongue!
Cuan wrote:Nissan, I know that normal guy . . . he is the one who came out to a couple practices because he met a girl in school and she was into the SCA. He tried a couple of practices, thought, "wow, these guys are not normal", and then quit.
I can hit too light with 10" rattan. so the thickness of the weapon is irrelevant.
I can dent 12ga stainless steel with 1.25" rattan.
this rule is a meridian rule. they have the right to make the rule regardless of how anyone feels about it.
this rule will cause too many folks to call people brutes and cheaters that use thicker rattan because they have been programmed to think anything that thick is thuggery.
the above fact wont matter to most as it will only cause fewer people to cross into their borders and even fewer still to cross out of their borders which further isolates their fighting culture. this only effects them and if they are ok with that the entire rest of the sca has to be as well. if the rest of us disagree so be it, but it is their right and we have to respect that.
at the end of the day my personal opinion is that its ridiculous and makes no sense. however, my opinion only effects me. let them do as they think is best and let us all welcome them to come and play as the rest of us do and have done so safely for decades. if they choose not to that's fine as well so long as they act correctly outside of their fences.
regards
logan
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I would argue that this is flawed thinking. I know folks that simply cannot hit hard enough with rattan of any size. it is not the tool that hits hard, it is the person using it. we simply cannot point to a stick of rattan and call it worthy based on its size, weight, diameter, or shape.
we have a vehicle which poorly defines the safety of our sport. we prohibit "excessive force" . now this is a completely flawed statement and one that is not defined by any means. personally I have hit folks with blows that dent 12ga stainless helms of solid construct. I have had folks smile and call it good and I have hit folks with much lighter blows that have lost their shit and called me a thug. I have done both with rattan that is under 1.5" and rattan that is just south of 3".
we should have a rule that simply states "don't be a douche". if you have a guy dead to rights and you decide to bash him unaware to his shoulder blade when you could have bashed his helm I think youre being a bit of a douche.
but we simply cannot, in my opinion, blame the tool that is used.
regards
logan
Morgan wrote:On the opposite side, I'd posit that if a kingdom's standards are such that a normal person can't hit hard enough with 1.25", that kingdom's calibration standards are too high.
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Forgive my ignorance is posing this question, but isn't it pretty hot and muggy in Merdies? Do people there tend to wear lighter armor for that reason? If people wear lighter armor, I can understand why people might want to avoid heavier swords.
nothing is hotter and muggier than sc in the summer!
it appears to me that more armour is worn in meridies, GA (I always misspell that one) and trimaris than atlantia and the midrealm. I see a lot of leather and metal in those kingdoms as apposed to the 1/8" plastic or just the zoombang shirts that I see in atlantia. so I am not sure that is accurate. I certainly could be wrong though as most of my observations come from gulf wars and pennsic (well I know im right about trimaris as I lived there for 2 years).
those are the kingdoms in the south east. some of those cats west of us don't wear hardly anything and they all seem to be super skinny to boot!
regards
logan
Tally wrote:Forgive my ignorance is posing this question, but isn't it pretty hot and muggy in Merdies? Do people there tend to wear lighter armor for that reason? If people wear lighter armor, I can understand why people might want to avoid heavier swords.
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I am under the impression that this is a meridies only issue and shouldn't domino effect into other Kingdoms let alone become a society wide issue.
I am also under the impression that although some in the Meridies wish to play a lighter game then others, that many meridies fighters travel and when out of their home kingdom can play the calibration of the host kingdom be it atlantia or Pennsic with no issue.
I've also recently seen at my local practice someone who gave my newbie person who is fresh into armour a flat falchion with a heavy iron basket and made from 2" rattan.
the newbie explained that this person is under the impression that this will help the new guy.
i tend to believe as most from Olaf to Logan have stated that its technique and not the rattan that makes the shot solid.
thankfully the new guy understood this and isn't going to start off with a beater.
YMMV.
Sigifrith Hauknefr - SCA fighting is not a recreation of anything...
Baron Joseph Harcourt - House Serpentius. East Kingdom.
dukelogan wrote:nothing is hotter and muggier than sc in the summer!
it appears to me that more armour is worn in meridies, GA (I always misspell that one) and trimaris than atlantia and the midrealm. I see a lot of leather and metal in those kingdoms as apposed to the 1/8" plastic or just the zoombang shirts that I see in atlantia. so I am not sure that is accurate. I certainly could be wrong though as most of my observations come from gulf wars and pennsic (well I know im right about trimaris as I lived there for 2 years).
Though Gleann Abhann is no longer Meridies, the separation was only a few years ago. They sure as heck wear ALOT less armor, across-the-board, than has been my experience living in the East, Atlantia, Midrealm, Caid, Atenveldt, and Trimaris.
So I would disagree with that assertion wholeheartedly, at least regards to this part of former-Meridies.
Max VH
Betrachten. Verpflichten. Glauben.
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well you would know better than me. like I said, I can only go by what ive seen at gulf wars and from living in trimaris. however I will stand firmly on the fact that summer in sc is some of the worst conditions I have ever felt. 5 months of 100 degree ambient temps, the pollen, no breeze, and the high humidity was murder. I was so much happier in west palm beach. 10 months of lows in the 70s and highs in the 80s, that ocean breeze coming from the intercostal. ahhhh what a wonderful place to be!
now im in northern Virginia and whatever this crap in the air that blows up my sinuses can go to hell!!!
anyway, the diameter of the rattan has no bearing on a weapon being dangerous. that is just stupid. hopefully some new leadership will step in soon and get rid of this. until then it is their rule and folks will just have to comply with it. and they will have to accept that nobody else has such a thing and if they travel they will also accept the rules where they are.
regards
logan
maxntropy wrote:
dukelogan wrote:nothing is hotter and muggier than sc in the summer!
it appears to me that more armour is worn in meridies, GA (I always misspell that one) and trimaris than atlantia and the midrealm. I see a lot of leather and metal in those kingdoms as apposed to the 1/8" plastic or just the zoombang shirts that I see in atlantia. so I am not sure that is accurate. I certainly could be wrong though as most of my observations come from gulf wars and pennsic (well I know im right about trimaris as I lived there for 2 years).
Though Gleann Abhann is no longer Meridies, the separation was only a few years ago. They sure as heck wear ALOT less armor, across-the-board, than has been my experience living in the East, Atlantia, Midrealm, Caid, Atenveldt, and Trimaris.
So I would disagree with that assertion wholeheartedly, at least regards to this part of former-Meridies.
Max VH
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Your Grace, I think what you are seeing is all the folks that put on extra armor when we know we are going to be playing with other Kingdoms that might hit a bit harder than we do. Just precautionary you understand. I see quite a bit less body armor at our local events in Gleann Abhann and Meridies.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way. You should know how to do all three as needed.
that's what I thought might be the case. when I used to go to events in meridies it seemed like less armour than what I would see at gulf wars. when I lived in trimaris most of the guys wore full lamellar or all metal body armour. it was funny to have 15 of us in a park for a fighter practice all gathered under one tree like wildebeest on the Serengeti. didn't take long under that sun to suck your energy dry though.
regards
logan
Stephanofd wrote:Your Grace, I think what you are seeing is all the folks that put on extra armor when we know we are going to be playing with other Kingdoms that might hit a bit harder than we do. Just precautionary you understand. I see quite a bit less body armor at our local events in Gleann Abhann and Meridies.
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DWolfhunter wrote:So what this is, is : The Meridian tendency towards being a whiney field pussy has infected their EM's office?
I accept. Ill be at Pennsic in Perchain camp ( actually right next door) and Gulf wars if ever youd like to test your theory or you can man up and apologize for being a douche and talking shit via the internet.
onto the point : this was a knee jerk reaction to an injury recieved at gulf. Our Prince "will, most likely" have this removed.
personally, I have two short swords and a seax that I cannot use in kingdom. oddly enough I never do, theyre backup weapons for war. Thus this ruling had ZERO effect on the populace, it did however have an effect on the view of our Crown who aprooved it..
- BdeB