11th century armour

Adrian de Cadiz · Post by **Adrian de Cadiz** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:51 am

I've been fighting now for 6 years, but my armour has been whatever I put together. I'd like to make a set that's closer to my time period, 11th Century. any suggestions?
Thanks,
Adrian de Cadiz

Brandr hinn Rusli · Post by **Brandr hinn Rusli** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:07 am

What area of the world or culture are you from?

11 century for England - Age of maille. Helms are spangens, norman conicals and a few other lesser known styles.

Brandr hinn Rusli

[This message has been edited by Brandr hinn Rusli (edited 03-13-2001).]

Adrian de Cadiz · Post by **Adrian de Cadiz** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:21 am

My persona is Spanish. right now I'm fighting in a coat of plate. I was thinking of amking scales out of leather or plastic.

Armourkris · Post by **Armourkris** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:22 pm

wheras i dont know anything about 11th century spain, i's recomend against plastic scale, just becasue there is really no good way i can think of to disguise plastic like that, and well, stupid little things like that really make your image seem much less valid to spectators. i'd go with leather if you use scales

besides, plastic doesnt look as nice, and wheras i hae no problems with it really, if it's hidden, you'll probly get ranted on by certain others here. and hidden scaled defeats the point

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What, drawn, and talk of peace! I hate the word, As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee:

[This message has been edited by Tybolt (edited 03-13-2001).]

CBA · Post by **CBA** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:10 pm

Maille was universal at that time period.

SteelWeaver · Post by **SteelWeaver** » Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:45 pm

I have to agree with the maille idea.

Fortunately, it's probably the easiest do-it-yourself armour. Though somewhat time consuming for the novice, you get the hang of it pretty quickly... Or you never do.

------------------
Where are the reasons
That once stood out so clear?
In a haze of compromise
They all seem to disappear

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 11:49 am

11th cent. Spain
Maille was really big,
Scale was second (and I second the comment on NOT using plastic scales -- Scale is specifically visible).

No Brigandines (or call them Coat of Plate) as far as I've ever read.
...but the fanciest armour, at least for the Muslim kingdoms, was a sort of Maile-Brigandine --
a layered armour where maile coats alternated with fabric -- the whole thing sewn into one garment with the fabric on the outside.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:12 pm

For Pete's sake, make a leather scale or lamellar byrnie. There isn't enough scale in the SCA at all. It looks good and disperses blows excellently.

And for Pete's sake, don't use plastic. Since there isn't enough of this stuff around, everyone's going to look at it a lot. That, and the only time I've ever seen someone suffer heat exhaustion he was wearing plastic.

HELMUT

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 1:42 pm

Go with mail. Then, under your mail but over your padding, place leather or plastic plates over your easily bruised bits. Makes everybody happy. The trick is the helm/helmet...

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Wed Mar 14, 2001 3:31 pm

Go with mail. Then, under your mail but over your padding, place leather or plastic plates over your easily bruised bits. Makes everybody happy.

Yuck.
This is just a personal thing but --
I really hate the use of "fake" armour --
by "fake" - I mean the use of armour that really should not be there in period ...and you pretend you don't have it on now.
-- especially if you don't have to use it.

Hardened (or just thick) Leather Scale is quite sufficient for SCA needs.

Or, if you can stand the weight,
go with the Kazarghand (the Maile "brigandine" I described above) -- with two or more layers of maile, sandwiched with multiple layers of light padding, you should be quite well protected for SCA fighting --
You'd have something not often seen on the SCA field, and you'd be the height of military fashion for an 11th century Spanish Knight!
The advantage of this second is that the coat will include sleeves and skirting as well.
Combine it with gambosed cuises and maile lower leg defenses.
...the only "fake" armour you'll need is a set of elbow coups (which can also be sewn to the inside of the Kazarghand), and knee coups (which you can sew inside the gambosed cuises)

The trick is the helm/helmet...
One thing that the Spanish were big on was to have the whole face covered -- with a full face maile-drape you have a good solution to the ubiquitous bar-grill problem.
For the helmet itself, a simple connical with a large Nasal (similar to the "Norman" helmet -- but really expand the triangular shape of the Nasal to cover as much of the face as you can manage), a basic, deep round bowl (with eye cut-outs, with or without Nasal).
Those should do you.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Adrian de Cadiz · Post by **Adrian de Cadiz** » Thu Mar 15, 2001 9:47 am

Thanks for the ideas. I think I'll go with the hardend leather scale. Now what's the best way to put soemthing like that together? I was thinking of attaching them together like Lamalar scales.

Closed face helm though? I don't know I fought with a great helm when I first started and I could never breath.
Adrian

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Thu Mar 15, 2001 11:07 am

If you do scale, you need a backing material and a way to secure them to it (which is two more problems), and you're going to end up replacing scales periodically as they get battered or worn off.
I think lamellar is a better option for something that's going to stay together. I'd use 6 oz. or thicker vegetable tanned leather, and I would NOT harden it with wax, since it takes forever and is a bloody mess in warm weather.
I'd just upkeep it with neatsfoot, mink, or linseed oil (if you use mink make sure to get the oil, not the goop for shoes).
Lamellar is a little tricky to figure out how to put it together, and you have to make sure to put it together loosely enough to allow you to move.
There are also a lot more different looks you can get with lamellar.

HELMUT

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Mar 15, 2001 12:02 pm

I have not seen Lamellar for 11th cent Spain.
but it's pretty universal, so if you really want -- go ahead.

For the Scale, get a light leather vest (I usually use 4 ounce leather in the "jacket finish").
The scales would be Vege Tan, 8 ounce or more.
If you're hardening, I'd go with warm-water hardening.
Punch a batch of holes in your scale and sew them with Artificial Sinew to the backing.

On this picture of a Russian soldier
( http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/scale-rs.gif? ), I illustrated a scale shirt that's really close to the Spanish shirt I've seen (it seemed a bit longer though - maybe to the hip rather than the belt). But Spanish illustrations also show them with bigger scales (all hip-length).

The helmet -- no - not closed-face.
Full-face Maile-drape and a big Nasal.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

bela of kaffa · Post by **bela of kaffa** » Thu Mar 15, 2001 2:32 pm

bela sez...YO,ADRIAAAAAAAN!!!

well, you can still pick up the lamallar plates, the aluminum plates would cost you approx. the same as the leather... if leather, pick up a side of veg-tan saddle skirting...( i got mine for $100) I prefer saddle skirting over the 8 oz leather, only because when lighter leather is used, it seems to eventually curl out a bit,making you look like shrubbery gone bad!

ps, the next time you come down my way, you better bring your armour, ya weasily lil' couch monkey!

honor kindness, and mortal insults between friends,
bela, who is not looking for the 6 fingered man, and dammit, i didn't kill your father...