Greathelm usage in the early 14th...

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

So my main kit I'm working on is based upon Otto Von Orlamunde. Looking at his effigy I assume the chain going over his shoulder is holding his greathelm. So my question would be, if I wore a greathelm instead of a bascinet, would the kit look incorrect? What about a sugarloaf?

Thanks,
Randy

[James B.]

Its more likely you would wear the great helm/sugarloaf over the bascinet. Its a fairly common seen combo in art of the 1340s. For instance in the Luttrell Psalter Sir Geoffrey Luttrell is wearing a basinet and his wife ishanding him his sugarloaf/visored great helmet.

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

Exactly, so my thinking is to just wear the greathelm/sugarloaf rather than wearing one on top of the other. This being for SCA obviously.

[RandallMoffett]

I agree with James on this one. Looks like the great helm goes over the bascinet. I do not think this was more common than other systems but in this case the evidence seems to lean to the combination of the two.

For ease of use I guess you could wear just the one, and it was a period option so not wrong just no longer what we see in this effigy exactly. You call in the end.

RPM

[scott2978]

Although this is a little OT, does anyone know how historical great helms worn over a bascinet were prevented from just spinning around on your head? With no chin straps invented yet, I'm not sure how this was supposed to work.

[Ernst]

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=103047
Chin laces were in use. Besides, helms and bascinets aren't round.

[Tom B.]

Although this is a little OT, does anyone know how historical great helms worn over a bascinet were prevented from just spinning around on your head? With no chin straps invented yet, I'm not sure how this was supposed to work.

I was just looking at Albert Collins website and saw a something interesting he did.
Checkout out images 43-46.
http://www.viaarmorari.com/main.php?view=10

Has anyone seen the spacers (see image 44) ,like he put on the bascinet, in any period sources?
I kind of vaguely recall a thread discussing this from a few years ago but could not find it.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Besides, helms and bascinets aren't round.

Neither are heads, hopefully. :p

[scott2978]

Besides, helms and bascinets aren't round.

Neither are heads, hopefully. :p

That thread is an interesting read. One of the great mysteries of my mind has been partly answered... (what kept a medieval helmet on your head?). Having served in the military though and encountered all manner of helmet/chinstrap difficulties for over a decade, I know that while a chin strap probly wouldn't decapitate you, if it was tied it could strangle you, no question. Though this happening by accident is unlikely, with someone trying to rip it off your head (as Ernst says occurs frequently in period literature) it is entirely possible. However, that said, I personally would rather wear a tied chin lace than nothing. The quip about round helmets is way off the mark. When worn over a bascinet, the ocular of your great helm is not very close to your eyes. In period helmets the ocular is quite narrow compared to modern sport helmets, not more than 1cm wide sometimes. With very little room to wiggle without impeding or blocking your vision, your helmets don't have to be round to move enough to be a problem. I wonder what the inside of those great helms that are worn over a bascinet look like.

[Ernst]

Perhaps your "spinning around" was mis-understood? It sounds like you had something more limited in mind, like being dislodged. I apologize if I mis-understood and responded accordingly.

[RandallMoffett]

I always have a strap or lacing as my experience is they do bounce around on horseback, even with just mail which I had figured would have gripped it better than the slick skull helmet.

RPM

[scott2978]

I did some google searching last night on this but came up mostly empty. Finding pictures of the inside of a great helm worn over a bascinet is a real exercise. Anyone happen to know what those helms should look like? Is the space between the bascinet and the great helm filled with padding, or is the great helm held in place on the bascinet some other way? Actually now I'm getting more historical and less "re-creation" now.

[Ernst]

I see this was cross-posted, and responses are there.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=163194