Celts... where did this all come from?

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 10:43 am

Y'know, most folks that I have ever discussed the subject with seem to think that to be a period Celt, one would have to shed all their clothes, paint themselves blue, and run screaming around the field until someone made them go away.

I've read a few different books on the history to the british celts and didn't find reference to this dress or behavior anywhere. Most references to post-roman celtic armour seems to be slightly updated roman equipment... even the pre-roman celts had forms of armour and such...

so why does the general public seem to think that the british celts spent their time naked and painted blue?

white mountain armoury · Sat Oct 07, 2000 11:21 am

from what ive read rome adopted mauch of its early armour from the celts. There are period refrences to naked celtic warrior, i will search for teh greek author in question.
I believe that hte "naked" celts were fairly early and that it was the exception.
On a side note the celts were always thought to use woad as the pigment for their body paint but celtic ritual sacrafices presderved in peat (lindow man for example) are actually painted with a copper rich clay.
Im heading ot the door for an event but will open up some books on the subject a little later

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 1:07 pm

the "blue naked guys' you are talking about are infact Picts, they come from northern Ireland and Scottland, they are Celtic but they were not the only celts. The movie the 13th warrior did a warped dipction of Picts. Celtic people were from greatbritton,wales,Ireland,Scottland,Norway and other Norse countries. Most people think of Picts as the "Celtic" people cause of hollywood, probably. but, many Celts, especially in the more southern countries wore clothes and were not really much different than alot of people from that time.

Insane Irish

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 1:35 pm

And then there's the context -- in a lot of cultures, people who are actively fighting don't wear the same clothes as the rest of the populations. It would be kind of like saying that all 20th century North Americans ran around in camoflage, body armour, and helmets, with paint on their faces. (Of course, people who have never been in the military sometimes wear army pants or "Marine" T-shirts, but even these tend to be mixed with civilian clothing.)

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 4:36 pm

One glaring problem with the "naked, painted blue celt" idea as regards the british celts... Great Britain is not a land noted for it's tropical climate... I would have a hard time thinking that the folks ran around naked even on an occasional basis... it just wouldn't be practical.

Personally, I would think the "naked celt" thing is more myth than reality.

white mountain armoury · Sat Oct 07, 2000 5:03 pm

Insane, while the picts are certainly known for being painted they are not the only painted celts, rome was dealing with painted celts befor the birth of christ, and long befor they ventured into brittan.
As for climate conditions the naked fighting was to symbolize their bravery, i can imagine warm clothes were put on shortly after if temp dictated it.

Alexi · Post by **Alexi** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 5:10 pm

the celts who sacked greece were usualy naked, and painted. Left Austria, ran around greece a couple years pilledged temples, thru the pilledge in lakes then settled in Greece, went east to gallacia, or went north and diffused.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 6:38 pm

The thing that gets me most though.. is that any time the term "celt" is brought up, to most folks I've ever talked to, regardless of the time period, (even later period celts) they automatically come up with naked and painted up in woad...

It just aint right!

Most reading/research I've ever done on the subject indicates they had armour, weapons, AND CLOTHES just like everyone else.

Why are they depicted (as a group) as little more than stone age savages?

white mountain armoury · Sat Oct 07, 2000 6:53 pm

Actually Alexi i believe the celts who sacked greece and the delphi were well armoured, there are written accounts of their maille and their helms, i wish i could remember which book i have that talkes about their battle at the pass of thermopolye (sp?)
The celtic mercinary cav that fought for alexander the great was well armoured as well.
the "every celt was naked" image was perpetuated in the victorian era right along with viking horned helmets.
Otto the best thing to do is to just start setting things straight with people who are unaware.
the fact is celtic fabrics were highly prized by romans and greeks because of the colors achieved by their advanced weaving process, no one could manufacture textiles like them, so why be naked when you make the best fabrics.
Rome modeled their armour on celtic armour and employed celtic workers to manufacture it.
The first recorded mention of maille is roman attributing it to the celts.
Most people think of them are barbarians and animals and have never bothered to take the tikme to find out that in their day htey were an amazingly powerful and highly artistic culture every bit as wonderful as any of the medateranian cultures of their day. their metal working ability far surpassed their contemporaries
well make it a quest to set the record straight.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 7:00 pm

I'm not sure if the Picts were Celtic in origen. As for the naked part, it may have been unusual, and therefore worthy of mention.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 10:56 pm

Actually, as regards the Picts... it is my understanding that they were a seperate cultural group from the Celts. As the Celts moved into Britain the Picts were forced northward into the area of Scotland... It is also my understanding that Pictish kingdoms in the far north lasted through the Roman occupation (of some 4 centuries)and were finally absorbed into the northern Irish Kingdoms in the 9th or 10th centuries... but were never a part of the Celts, nor were they entirely pushed out or absorbed by them.

Thorfin · Post by **Thorfin** » Sun Oct 08, 2000 12:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by InsaneIrish:
the "blue naked guys' you are talking about are infact Picts, they come from northern Ireland and Scottland, they are Celtic but they were not the only celts. The movie the 13th warrior did a warped dipction of Picts.
Insane Irish<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Wendol in the book Eaters of the Dead (Thirteenth Warrior) were supposed to be a violent offshoot of Neanderthal, or possibly something akin to Australopithicus, not Picts.
Ahmed ibn Fahdlan's description of them and their weapons suggests this to the reader, and the footnotes actually SAY it.

Lord Jack · Post by **Lord Jack** » Sun Oct 08, 2000 2:28 am

Did anyone see the movie 'Dogma'? Remember when the angel who is the 'voice of God' keeps getting upset because humans cant seem to remember history unless they see it in a movie

Hollyweird has decided that anytime you need to portray Picts/Scots/Celts they should be tattooed and painted blue. Look at the movie Braveheart, feh! The Romans got their best armour and metalworking ideas from the Celts. Nobody remembers that Phoenicians had trade agreements with the Celtoiberians (Spain).

Reality for most people isnt very exciting so they build a fantasy world around perhaps one obscure, nay unique, reference (which might still be debatable) and ignore the rest. Its the same with Middle Eastern personas in the SCA. To the unenlighted SCA goer every Middle Eastern woman wore a 17th century Turkish Gwazi coat and poofy pants.

Your dilema with azure attired Celts is probably 1% fact/50% Victorian fantasy/49% modern fantasy.

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Sun Oct 08, 2000 3:21 am

A lot of our concept of "Celt" comes from the writers of the Classical era. They often depeicted the Celts and Germans as noble savages and to emphasize their savagery, had them go into battle naked. Also, since the Classical artists used battles with Celts as a subject, the Celts are often naked, but this is to show the artists skill and the beauty of the well developed human form, rather than the truth.
That being said, early on certain Celts are said tho have fought naked, a group or tibe called the Gaestae. Mind you this is real early, during the Punic Wars while Rome was still a Republic and the legions were citizen soldiers. A lot of the animus displayed by Rome to the Celts in Gaul comes from this time. Rome's armies were beaten in the feild by Celts, Rome had been sacked by Celts, Celtic migrations threatend her borders, how could they be anything but noble savages?
Rampant Hollywoodism is to blame for all the kilted,painted, greatsword weilding "Celts" we all see at events. Wanna be a savage and not be a Viking? Be a Celt! The term Celt wasn't really even in use during the medieval era. The various "Celtic" peoples were called Irish or Welsh or Scots. Even the Scots who spoke Gaelic were called Irish by the English. One can hope to educate the uniformed and enlighten the ignorant i suppose.
Slainte,
Fearghus

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Duct tape is like the force; it has a light side
it has a dark side and it holds the universe together.

Though poor, I am Noble. Thank God I am a MacLean

[This message has been edited by Fearghus (edited 10-08-2000).]

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sun Oct 08, 2000 3:51 pm

Thank you all for your comments... I guess I was just expressing frustration over what appears to me to be a very widespread and mistaken view of northern celts.

most specifically: re the SCA: you can't get a proper celt out on the field, they didn't wear armour!

I don't know how many times I have heard that... it seems to be a widespread misconception.

white mountain armoury · Sun Oct 08, 2000 5:37 pm

helmets, breast plates, maille, possibly greaves in an auxilary cav situaition

Damocles the Loony · Post by **Damocles the Loony** » Mon Oct 09, 2000 6:47 pm

Having gone skyclad and charged a roman legion in my younger days (in January near Glasgow) i can second the comments on britannic temperature..
I still get polaroids thru the post occasionally

NOT a thing i'll do again, tho if you want the story in full find me at an An-Tir event sometime...

As to celts my costume books etc seem to agree that they wore finely-made clothes, with trousers similar to the norse design in style, tied at the bottom, as well as long-sleeved tunics.

I'm not 100 percent sure that's true, but the books i have suggest it.

Just my tuppeny bit..

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When your life is hanging by a thread, swap seats with your host!

Alexi · Post by **Alexi** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 12:35 pm

White mnt. there are also greek references to naked Celts painted I'll see if I can find the book, it has to do with the sons of a Austrian chief who were sent out to make a name for them selves.

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ISRAEL OUT!

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Otto:
Why are they depicted (as a group) as little more than stone age savages?[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wellll, somebody has to be. And they didn't have any Tuchux.

That's facetious, but sociologically speaking, every culture has to have someone to look down on. Celts were just sooo...omnipresent.

Godin · Post by **Godin** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:42 pm

Speaking without any reference material whatsoever, I don't think that the naked blue warriors is all that far off.

Let me explain. As this board (and other websites I have read) has determined, not every warrior had a full suit of armor. Some of the poorer peasants probably had little more than a padded shirt, right?

So all the descriptions of the Celts (Pict, whatever) in full armor (and fine fabrics) probably described the majority of the soldiers. Those who had less/no money (beyond what fed the family) probably wanted to show their bravery by running naked into battle painted with woad, screaming like a banshee!!! That would be noteable, even if only 4 of the battle host did that. Especially consiering that at that time 90 was considered a large army.

I also remember something about woad being mixed with some sort of drug/narcotic. Maybe a halucenogen, or something. I don't know where I heard it, or if it is even true, but I thought that was part of the whole battle preparation; put on the woad, get into a drug induced stupor, run screaming onto the battlefield killing whatever moves.

If I were an opponent, I would be a little afraid of a screaming naked smurf!

Lodhur · Post by **Lodhur** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 7:01 pm

I've got it!! I'm going to make a full suit of armour, including, AHEM, 'codpiece' out of that big blue barrel I've got! I'll mold all muscled cuirass he-man (with pink nipples) style. Throw a tartan over my shoulder, & voila! NAKED BLUE CELT!!!

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 7:18 pm

Change of topic:

ISRAEL OUT!

What is this in reference to? Think VERY carefully before answering.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Lodhur · Post by **Lodhur** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:20 pm

Its half of a bumper sticker I saw the other day. The bottom half said 'OF YUGOSLAVIA'.

Damocles the Loony · Post by **Damocles the Loony** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 5:42 pm

I've got a theory as to why they were described as being blue..and it has nowt to do with woad....

According to my friends i was a nice pale blue all over, so i reckon it was the cold that made them blue, and the sudden hedgehogs that made them jump about and hit things...

Tom

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When your life is hanging by a thread, swap seats with your host!