critique armor

[NorwegianTyrant]

Hey been working on some new armor right now I got a COP with leather lamellar on top and hidden legs. I was thinking of taking the grille off and maybe even changing it to riveted bars. Any feedback and suggestions is appreciated

[NorwegianTyrant]

And heres cop lol demon eyes.

[Sevastian]

That demi and elbow cops are dead sexy! Lol! Your kit is really coming along.

[NorwegianTyrant]

That demi and elbow cops are dead sexy! Lol! Your kit is really coming along.

Oh ya do you like those :p

[Vladimir]

I'm confused. Why would you be wearing a coat of plates and a lammellar?

[Swete]

I am wondering why you would go through the trouble and expense of changing the bar types on your helm? Neither is going to look more accurate towards your kit.

[Steve S.]

I'm guessing the "coat of plates" is just to give you more protection than the lamellar alone? You shouldn't need it.

I agree with Swete that the grill is a grill. I personally like the riveted-on ones as they are at least within the realm of period construction technique but I would not bother removing one that already existed.

What time period are you shooting for?

Steve

[bigfredb]

Armour is just a portion of your overall presentation. The big question is what personna are you trying to emulate. That will help to determine choices.

Your armour is good enough to get on the field, for now.

Work on the finer details and finish. Garb can make a big difference.

[NorwegianTyrant]

I'm confused. Why would you be wearing a coat of plates and a lammellar?

I was told that lamellar was not enough to be legal so I figured I'd take some steel and make a COP that way if in the future I want to go a different direction I have a solid foundation.

[NorwegianTyrant]

I am wondering why you would go through the trouble and expense of changing the bar types on your helm? Neither is going to look more accurate towards your kit.

I'm kinda confused by what you mean? This is my first helm at the moment and unfortunately I moved to college and had to put someones solid grill on until I get the tools for individual riveted bars.

[NorwegianTyrant]

Armour is just a portion of your overall presentation. The big question is what personna are you trying to emulate. That will help to determine choices.

Your armour is good enough to get on the field, for now.

Work on the finer details and finish. Garb can make a big difference.

Trying to be a viking I had garb in the works from one of our ladies here but then the prince decided to show up and wanted a full order of many things so unfortunately I have been a little pushed back. Also going for a scandanavian 900s.

[Caius705]

We've had an ongoing debate about vikings wearing lamellar. As for protection, well, it's your body. But personally, I'd drop the coat of plates and maybe add padding under the lamellar where needed or where marshals gripe about.

Look into getting a period correct helm, Accdntprone here on the archive has excellent quality helms at a good ($115 last I saw) price and a modest waiting list. I have one of his myself and with the addition of mail on the side (which you can order or totally make your own if you'd like to save a few bucks) it looks awesome.

For long term, you may eventually want to buy a mail hauberk and hide armor underneath it for the real viking feel. Alternatively, keep the coat of plates and hide it under a long sleeve tunic, make it look like your just a regular viking, not someone wealthy enough to own armor.

[NorwegianTyrant]

We've had an ongoing debate about vikings wearing lamellar. As for protection, well, it's your body. But personally, I'd drop the coat of plates and maybe add padding under the lamellar where needed or where marshals gripe about.

Look into getting a period correct helm, Accdntprone here on the archive has excellent quality helms at a good ($115 last I saw) price and a modest waiting list. I have one of his myself and with the addition of mail on the side (which you can order or totally make your own if you'd like to save a few bucks) it looks awesome.

For long term, you may eventually want to buy a mail hauberk and hide armor underneath it for the real viking feel. Alternatively, keep the coat of plates and hide it under a long sleeve tunic, make it look like your just a regular viking, not someone wealthy enough to own armor.

This is actually my though process though I might just make my own helmet again like this it was fun and good experience (though it was supposed to be more round not conical grumble grumble). I'm confused though everyone is telling me something different about body armor people here say chain mail and lamellar aren't legal no matter what material without kidney belts at least so not sure who's right. And as for lamellar its a friends who I wanted to try out since i went from a 40 pound cuirass to a 9 pound cop 6 pound lamellar lol. But once i get my tunic and pants I'm most likely going for tunic over cop and that's it.

Also I just want to kinda say that conical spangenhelms are period to a 900 ad scandanavian.

[Caius705]

Oh, it is a spangen. Missed that from the pictures.

Your lamellar (per my understanding of the rules) should just need some padding around the kidneys and floating ribs if it's 10-12 oz unhardened leather. If you'd rather, attach some steel pieces to a shirt or undergarment and wear that with the lamellar instead of padding.

Personally, I'd go with a metal lamellar if I wanted lamellar, either 304 stainless(most common stainless alloy in the US), in aircraft aluminum because it protects well and weighs almost nothing or in 301 stainless (because it's super protective, weighs nothing and is sturdy enough to be hit with an actual axe repeatedly). You can make plates for these yourself or you can order them from polarbear forge or icefalcon armories. The prices are (IIRC) $.55, $.55 and $.95 cents per plate. There are also various other cheaper solutions, if you have time and tools but not cash.

As for chainmail, it really doesn't provide much protection in the SCA, especially not in terms of how much it weighs. But it looks really pretty. So there's that. And you can have a really well done hidden protection that fits under a tunic or mail (for occasions when you want to look pretty) in either plastic or metal. Swete here on the Archive has a set up like that, you can't tell he's wearing armor when he has a tunic on. Or you could just have a padded leather kidney belt. It depends on how much protection/weight you want.

[Sevastian]

A zoombang max coverage shirt qualifies as kidney protection IIRC. You could wear chainmail over that and call it good, or even just a tunic as suggested(I would opt for some extra plates over the ribs). I don't know about vikings wearing lamellar though I'm fairly certain they didn't wear COPs. That being said, I love the protection my Windrose COP gives me and I may even make a later period kit around it when I make more authentic torso armor for my current kit. Ultimately, you're going to be the one getting hit so as long as you're not out there in exposed pickle barrel and feel safe enough to fight that's all that really matters IMHO.
P.S. in the side shot of you and His Highness, it looks like your nasal touches your nose?

[schreiber]

I don't agree that a grill is a grill.
Grills aren't authentic save for some isolated examples. Sure.
But people are going to use them because that's the nature of the game.
Thus, I think we have some responsibility to do them nicely. A grill is definitely not going to add to the overall look of a kit - but it sure as hell can detract from it.

You can either stick bars together until it's legal... or you can pay attention to the aesthetics of the spacing, clean up the welds, put a decent coat of paint on them, etc.

[NorwegianTyrant]

A zoombang max coverage shirt qualifies as kidney protection IIRC. You could wear chainmail over that and call it good, or even just a tunic as suggested(I would opt for some extra plates over the ribs). I don't know about vikings wearing lamellar though I'm fairly certain they didn't wear COPs. That being said, I love the protection my Windrose COP gives me and I may even make a later period kit around it when I make more authentic torso armor for my current kit. Ultimately, you're going to be the one getting hit so as long as you're not out there in exposed pickle barrel and feel safe enough to fight that's all that really matters IMHO.
P.S. in the side shot of you and His Highness, it looks like your nasal touches your nose?

its close but doesn't touch just my big nose. As for the cop I know they didnt wear cops thats why its gonna be hidden and actually its not pickel barrel at all its steel I personally hate the feel of plastic cops. Can't even begin to afford a zoombang.

[Steve S.]

I don't agree that a grill is a grill.

What I mean is, a well-made welded grill isn't any better or worse than a well-made riveted grill.

In that regard, a grill is a grill and both are an anachronism.

I agree that a well-made anachronism is nicer than a poorly-made one.

Steve

[NorwegianTyrant]

Oh, it is a spangen. Missed that from the pictures.

Your lamellar (per my understanding of the rules) should just need some padding around the kidneys and floating ribs if it's 10-12 oz unhardened leather. If you'd rather, attach some steel pieces to a shirt or undergarment and wear that with the lamellar instead of padding.

Personally, I'd go with a metal lamellar if I wanted lamellar, either 304 stainless(most common stainless alloy in the US), in aircraft aluminum because it protects well and weighs almost nothing or in 301 stainless (because it's super protective, weighs nothing and is sturdy enough to be hit with an actual axe repeatedly). You can make plates for these yourself or you can order them from polarbear forge or icefalcon armories. The prices are (IIRC) $.55, $.55 and $.95 cents per plate. There are also various other cheaper solutions, if you have time and tools but not cash.

As for chainmail, it really doesn't provide much protection in the SCA, especially not in terms of how much it weighs. But it looks really pretty. So there's that. And you can have a really well done hidden protection that fits under a tunic or mail (for occasions when you want to look pretty) in either plastic or metal. Swete here on the Archive has a set up like that, you can't tell he's wearing armor when he has a tunic on. Or you could just have a padded leather kidney belt. It depends on how much protection/weight you want.

Cant even afford the plates to make my own lamellar ha!

[Konstantin the Red]

Definitely work something out for getting garb and cover-it-overtunic to advance the Vikingness, in that case. Gotta go with what you may afford. Which in the main means time to get creative.

[Swete]

(snip)
As for chainmail, it really doesn't provide much protection in the SCA, especially not in terms of how much it weighs. But it looks really pretty. So there's that. And you can have a really well done hidden protection that fits under a tunic or mail (for occasions when you want to look pretty) in either plastic or metal. Swete here on the Archive has a set up like that, you can't tell he's wearing armor when he has a tunic on. Or you could just have a padded leather kidney belt. It depends on how much protection/weight you want.

I know everyone is sick of me posting my kit, but since I was mentioned...
In this pic I am wearing a full plastic breast plate and plastic bazubands on my arms.
I now wear a plastic body bracelet (big kidney belt) since my weight gain this year.
If you follow the contours of the body when shaping the plates, plastic armour is very easy to hide. As is metal or leather for that matter.

[Dan Howard]

There is no evidence for viking lamellar and no evidence for vikings wearing leather body armour of any kind (actually there is one guy in the sagas called "leather neck"). The one lamellar find at Birka has been shown to be Khazar armour. There is not even a justification for a Scandinavian persona pretending to have served in the Varangian guard so he can wear lamellar because there is no evidence for Varangians wearing lamellar either. Swete's kit is the only real choice a viking persona has: mail armour with concealed hard protection to conform with SCA rules.

[Caius705]

I now wear a plastic body bracelet (big kidney belt) since my weight gain this year.

Finally broke 125 lbs did you?

[Dan Howard]

As for chainmail, it really doesn't provide much protection in the SCA, especially not in terms of how much it weighs.

That's the big difference between real combat and SCA combat. Historical armour was mainly designed to stop points from weapons such as spears and arrows. Pound for pound, properly riveted mail (not the commercially available riveted mail from India) is actually better than lamellar for this. In order for lamellar to have the same protection as mail it needs to be heavier. But mail isn't as good as lamellar against blunt trauma which is what SCA regulations call for.

[NorwegianTyrant]

(snip)
As for chainmail, it really doesn't provide much protection in the SCA, especially not in terms of how much it weighs. But it looks really pretty. So there's that. And you can have a really well done hidden protection that fits under a tunic or mail (for occasions when you want to look pretty) in either plastic or metal. Swete here on the Archive has a set up like that, you can't tell he's wearing armor when he has a tunic on. Or you could just have a padded leather kidney belt. It depends on how much protection/weight you want.

I know everyone is sick of me posting my kit, but since I was mentioned...
In this pic I am wearing a full plastic breast plate and plastic bazubands on my arms.
I now wear a plastic body bracelet (big kidney belt) since my weight gain this year.
If you follow the contours of the body when shaping the plates, plastic armour is very easy to hide. As is metal or leather for that matter.

this is kinda where im wanting to go basically just in the process of making and getting things. Your kit has always been inspiring to me though.

[Swete]

Hey, thanks man. I got all kinds of inspiration and help from Finnvarthr Finnbogason, Blackoak (Uric), and Greenshield (Camric) here on the archive. There are others of course, but those 3 just come to mind.
Want to know what the biggest upgrade was for my kit? SOFT KIT. I was spending money on all kinds of armour and maille, but I was wearing cargo pants and an old cotton t-tunic, and I kept wondering why I still didn't look right. I finally made a long sleeved linen tunic after Ld Thomas Willoughby commanded me to, and BOOM! Everything clicked.
If you can't or don't want to make the clothes, Linengarb.com and tailoredtunics.com are both fantastic.
And if you want cheap leg wraps, fleece horse wraps come in sets of 4. So you can get some for yourself and a friend.

[Sevastian]

Good point. A tunic, pants, leg wraps and a pair of shoes from Viking Leather(with lugged soles) would be about as much as a decent mild steel riveted hauberk.

[Dan Howard]

Re-enactiors should start with a good soft kit. They can always add armour later.

[Sevastian]

True, but beginner fighters should have enough armor to feel comfortable on the field. This tends to help build confidence-less bruising & injuries. Norwegian Tyrant is getting help with the soft kit, IIRC. If I get a set of black fleece leg wraps I'll send him the spare pair. Period pants, shoes, and he should be set to take the field in a kit similar to Swete's minus the chainmail hauberk.

P.S. Tyrant, PM me your T-tunic measurements and I'll see what I can do about getting a tunic to you gratis.

[Dan Howard]

But there is a difference between being a re-enactor and being a SCA fighter. A SCA fighter obviously needs protection but it is almost impossible to use historically-accurate armour. Firstly, most of it would not pass modern safety standards and secondly, historical armour had to worry about spears and arrows, not rattan sticks. You shouldn't be expecting SCA armour to look like historical armour without going to a lot of trouble to cosmetically hide the differences.

[bigfredb]

. . . Cant even afford _______!

It doesn't necessarily take money to afford something. Sweat, ingenuity, creativity, etc., might be required.

Trading/Bartering are a period way to get the things you need/want!

[NorwegianTyrant]

. . . Cant even afford _______!

It doesn't necessarily take money to afford something. Sweat, ingenuity, creativity, etc., might be required.

Trading/Bartering are a period way to get the things you need/want!

This is true my entire kit has cost me 200 dollars just cause i made everything besides 3 pieces.