Setting up a burner for doing hot work?

[Steve S.]

Back on 2002 I bought a T-rex burner from hybridburners.com.

I was going to use it to make a forge of sorts for heating sheet metal for hot work. Basically I'm going to arrange it to shoot fire out of the bottom of a galvanized bucket lined with fire brick, so I can lay pieces of sheet metal in the flame with tongs from above.

Here is what I have:

http://imgur.com/a/8MIvb

I have just sent an email to the guy to see about ordering to 1/4" ball valves suitable for propane use, but he has not answered my previous emails asking questions so I don't know if he will respond to an order or not. Do you guys know where I can order such valves otherwise?

I'm going to set it up in a idle loop like he shows here:
http://www.hybridburners.com/pics/idle-full.jpg

I think I have all the parts but the ball valves.

Steve

[Kristoffer]

I am working on pretty much exactly the same setup but I made a "bucket" out of 2mm mild and I will insulate it with kaowool.

Remember the dangers of heating galvanized metal..

You should be able to get the copper stuff in a local plumbing store. I am thinking of making a drawing and hand over to a plumber and get the whole thing made from pressed tubing. If you want gas valves a welding supplier should have valves but they will be expensive.

[Sean Powell]

McMaster-carr, page 429 for brass. (can't direct link)

LP and Natural Gas
Brass Ball Valves

Max. Pressure for LP and Natural Gas: 5 psi
Max. Pressure for Steam: Not rated
Temp. Range: -40° to +125° F
Vacuum Rating: Not rated


Perfect for your low-pressure gas applications, these valves are CSA and CSA-US certified for low-pressure liquefied petroleum (LP) and natural gas service and are UL listed. Body is brass, ball is chrome-plated brass, and seats and packing are PTFE. Valves have slightly restricted flow (standard port). View information about flared tube fittings.

Pipe Size End-to-End Lg. Each
*Flare size is 1/8" less than pipe size.
NPT Female × Female
1" 2 7/8" 48915K63 $15.28
1/2" 2 3/16" 48915K61 4.78
3/4" 2 7/16" 48915K62 7.04

NPT Female × 45° Male Flare
1/2" 2 7/16" 48915K73* 7.82
1/2" 2 1/2" 48915K74 8.04
3/4" 3" 48915K75* 11.14

Sean

[Thomas Powers]

You are not planning to have the burner mounted in the bottom of the bucket so all the detritus of heating metal can drop down into it are you?

[Signo]

To avoid this, you can put the burner not at the bottom of the well, but angled upward and tangent to the well circumference. In this way firescale will fall down but the burner will always be clean, if you find the right position you may find a way to heat your piece even and fast.

[losthelm]

A ring or band of metal or fire brick actually helps direct the heat and support the work.
It looks a lot like the band used with a wok and works on the same principal.

[Steve S.]

You are not planning to have the burner mounted in the bottom of the bucket so all the detritus of heating metal can drop down into it are you?

Oops, good call, I had not thought about that.

On second thought, I'm going to get one of those harbor freight weed burners to use for this application. The reviews say the guy uses it for melting aluminum cans and it gets up to 3000 degrees so it should be fine for heating sheet metal. Apparently it has a "boost" mode where it burns at one level usually and if you pull the trigger it goes full bore.

Where do you buy kaowool?

Steve

[Steve S.]

Found places that sell kaowool. How do you wet it down and sculpt it like cement?

Steve

[Thomas Powers]

Weed burners tend to be quite oxidizing; is scaling an issue or will you be working with extra thick pieces?

[Steve S.]

Weed burners tend to be quite oxidizing; is scaling an issue or will you be working with extra thick pieces?

I think just about any fire out in the open is going to be oxidizing, right? I'm not building an enclosed forge, but rather something like Eric Thing has made - a "cone of fire" into which you can stick sheet metal to heat it up.

Right now I'm working with .035" thick 1074 for gauntlets and I am going to be heating the pieces once in the fire to quench and then they will be polished and submerged in molten lead for tempering.

Steve

[schreiber]

Found places that sell kaowool. How do you wet it down and sculpt it like cement?

Steve

I don't think you sculpt it. You just attach it to the wall of the forge/cone/whatever. I've seen people put large wires through it & such.
If you want it to stay put you need to get a separate hardener/rigidizer product that will get in the fibers.
http://shop.clay-planet.com/inswool.aspx
After that you might be able to finish it off with regular refractory cement if you want a smoother coating. You probably do if you're doing an ITC-100 coat as well.

[schreiber]

Weed burners tend to be quite oxidizing; is scaling an issue or will you be working with extra thick pieces?

rather something like Eric Thing has made - a "cone of fire" into which you can stick sheet metal to heat it up.

I had thought of doing something like this, but then I got an o/a rosebud, and then I realized I wasn't really working on helms or breastplates. If you're just doing elbows, knees, gaunts, and spot-heats of other pieces (like rolls) then the o/a works like a champ... better, even, because you can heat locally.

The only time I'd want something that big is if I'm doing helms. And then I'd do what Tom Justus did - I'd build a medium sized top-loading foundry. That way I'd be able to cast, and just remove the top and plug the whole hat down on it when I want to raise a helm.

[Steve S.]

I don't think you sculpt it. You just attach it to the wall of the forge/cone/whatever. I've seen people put large wires through it & such.
If you want it to stay put you need to get a separate hardener/rigidizer product that will get in the fibers.
http://shop.clay-planet.com/inswool.aspx
After that you might be able to finish it off with regular refractory cement if you want a smoother coating. You probably do if you're doing an ITC-100 coat as well.

I think this is more trouble and expense than I need. I looked up the kaowool and ITC-100 and that stuff ain't cheap. All I'm basically making is a safe place for the torch blast to land when there is no metal stuck into the path of the flame. I'm going to cut part of the side wall away from a steel bucket and put some sand in the bottom, and then run some fire brick around the perimeter. This should contain the flame.

It's possible that the T-Rex burner more completely burns the incoming oxygen than the weed burner and so would make for a less oxidizing environment for whatever is stuck in the fire. But since you will be pulling it out of the fire to work it on a stake (in air) while it is glowing hot I'm not sure that it matters how complete the combustion is in the torch. Maybe it does matter, I don't know.

I don't have an O/A torch, and I don't want to deal with the expense of buying the torch and then the consumables for it. Propane seems relatively cheap.

Steve

[Gregoire de Lyon]

I have one of the HF weed burners. IT does indeed have normal and "turbo" modes. The only thing is that when it is on, it is on. Turning it off means you have relight it. I think that leaving it on while trying to do hot work would burn through a lot of propane pretty quickly and/or freeze your bbq tank.

[coreythompsonhm]

I bought one of those harbour freight weed burners and I rarely use it. I just use o/a with a rosebud or a welding tip depending on how local or wide spread of heat I want. If I was to get one of those trex burners, I would just build the Eric Thing setup.

[Steve S.]

I have one of the HF weed burners. IT does indeed have normal and "turbo" modes. The only thing is that when it is on, it is on. Turning it off means you have relight it. I think that leaving it on while trying to do hot work would burn through a lot of propane pretty quickly and/or freeze your bbq tank.

Would it be possible to restrict it's "normal" mode to be more like an "idle" mode?

Steve

[Gregoire de Lyon]

I have one of the HF weed burners. IT does indeed have normal and "turbo" modes. The only thing is that when it is on, it is on. Turning it off means you have relight it. I think that leaving it on while trying to do hot work would burn through a lot of propane pretty quickly and/or freeze your bbq tank.

Would it be possible to restrict it's "normal" mode to be more like an "idle" mode?

Steve

Haven't played with it much, but I don't think so. I'm watching this thread closely, because I am trying to figure out how to do hot work as well and am also not interested in the investment for an O/A rig...

[Gregoire de Lyon]

If you are getting a weed burner, get one with the piezo-electric sparker - that might make it easier to on/off it as necessary. I have the old one that requires an external lighter - PITA at best, eyebrow risking at worse...

[coreythompsonhm]

From what I remember, its still a pretty good flame coming out with the valve turned way down.

[redrook]

Steve,
I started hotwork with a weedburner and a pile of firebricks (20 I think).This way I could configure the bricks for different shapes.It seemed to work fine for sheet metal/armour,but later I had to make a real burner for heating up bar stock/blacksmithing.It isn't the greatest setup in the world,but it works fair on a tight budget.Good luck!

[woodwose]

I have a t-rex burner. Most of the time I use it with a simple "brick pile" forge made of refractory bricks that I can pile up differently as needed. A while back I was playing around with configurations for heating sheet metal but didn't come up with anything I was really happy with... most of the time for heating sheet metal I just lay the metal on top of the forge and use the t-rex like a big hand held torch, holding onto it by the sliding doodad at the back and make sure I don't have flammable or melty things like electrical cords nearby.

I think I picked up the gas ball valve fitting at Lows or Home Despot.

[Tom B.]

Take a look at this thread by Louis de Leon
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128351

[johan1212]

Fire bricks and a weed burner will work but like others have pointed out will use propane fast.
1. you can get all the gas fittings at lowes, home depot or the local hardware store.
2. save gas use two valves set the one at the burner to the flame you like and one in line as a shut off. keep a long nose lighter at hand. turn on the gas with the in line valve and light flame with lighter, When hot turn off or real low with in line so adjustments at burner are left alone. I like ball valves for this kind of job.
3.Kaowool should be left fluffy to get best results if you buy rolled. plumbing supply shops have it in boards. rolls and cylinders. they are referred as burner targets for oil fired heating systems. I have used Johnstone supply for this. You can also find board at wood stove stores it gets used in heat defecting baffles.
4. get the lite kiln bricks not heavy fireplace bricks. the light bricks reflect heat more then absorb heat. lite bricks wear eazy however. maybe target with kaowool or lite bricks and support on heavy.
5. I like this type of set up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ykv7BBq1SNwse
6. spend your time and monies on a good tool today and use it for years or go half assed and it is always half assed. a good tool can be sold as a tool a plié of bricks is a pile of bricks. I do have my own pile of bricks in my shop also as they are useful.

TO INSPIRE here is my just built heat treat oven
4.8kw 220V temp controller and open door shutoff switch.
18x18x12
keep banging the rocks together. its amazing what you find out
johan

[Johann Lederer]

I got some kawool from a friend who works in industrial maintenance at a large factory. They use it when they rebuild boilers in the plant. When I lined my propane forge body, I used a rigidizer that Schreiber describes. I don't remember the exact name, but I got it at a true plumbing store. I told the owner what I wanted to do with it and he said it would be fine.

A little OT...
Has anyone ever built a Reil burner from the directions on line? I had been fiddliing with my build for a couple of months and just let it sit. I used an 1 1/2 x 1" reducing fitting (hard to find in my area) and brass fittings to make the gas delivery system. It burns but not efficiently. I guess my cone at the end is wrong, just not sure...

[Steve S.]

I bought the Harbor Freight weed burner. It appears to have a flow control valve to adjust idle flow plus the trigger for full-open. Right now I just need something to heat gauntlet pieces to quench heat and a standard propane torch is too small.

I also bought some fire brick I can arrange in a bowl for doing raising.

Steve

[Thomas Powers]

Reil Burner: The inducer cone is a big player in getting things just right; however the centering of the orifice is very important as well. Also check that no crud has managed to block the orifice from the inside---teflon pipe tape is notorious for this. Removing any drilling burrs on the inside can help too. You are using a regulator so you have steady pressures right?

[CLANG]

Check out Larry Zoeller's page for an improved design of the venerable Reil burner. It's nearly as easy to build and works much better. He has a nice, informative site. I've built several of his "Side Arm" burners, and once tweaked, they burn nice and steady from less than 1 lb of pressure to over 30 (as high as I've gone, anyway), and use fuel very efficiently. I'd like to compare one to a T-rex, but haven't had the opportunity yet.

As to the valves, get ball valves with WOG rating. Stands for Water Oil Gas. If you're not sure, it's generally cast into the side of the body. I got a box of them off EbLay pretty cheap.

[Steve S.]

Take a look at this thread by Louis de Leon
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128351

This was a very interesting thread, thanks. I like the simple brick ductwork he set up; I think I will do that instead of my bucket plan. Also the tip about the UV safety glasses was good.

Steve

[Thomas Powers]

IR safety glasses! A gas or coal or charcoal forge puts out almost no UV and lots of IR; so gas welding lenses not arc welding!

[Gregoire de Lyon]

IR safety glasses! A gas or coal or charcoal forge puts out almost no UV and lots of IR; so gas welding lenses not arc welding!

Here's a nice resource for appropriate eye protection:

http://www.sundanceglass.com/didymiumsr.htm

[Steve S.]

IR safety glasses! A gas or coal or charcoal forge puts out almost no UV and lots of IR; so gas welding lenses not arc welding!

IR...UV...whatever. You are right.

Steve

[Johann Lederer]

Thank you Thomas and Clang. I am not happy with the inducer cone I made, and will look at the things mentioned...

[Sean Powell]

Sorry for the FB link but would this design be better? Or is is a fuel waster because there is no ceramic heat trap?

https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?f ... =1&theater

Sean

[Steve S.]

That is what I had originally envisioned, just a torch head in free air, but the above link showed that by boxing in the fire you can get more effective localized heating.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128351

Steve

[Mad Matt]

I built a sheet metal forge like Eric things recently using a z burner it works fantastic. I've done two pairs of cased Greaves with it so far and have yet to empty a barbeque tank. Also if I'm shaping a pair heating time is the same as hammering time so I can work on both pieces and swap back and forth.