Amateur Artist needs info on Scale Armor and other things

[jadebrain]

Hello, everyone! As some of you may know, I'm an amateur artist and game designer, and I come here on occasion for help with either of those two things. As of right now, I'm brainstorming ideas for how to draw armor to be worn by a character of mine during playtesting of the game I am making. I want to make the armor look realistic in terms of protectiveness; in fact, I usually shy away from drawing certain types of armor if I don't know how they would work, which is why I've usually drawn variants of Mirror Armor (it's easy to understand).

Mechanically speaking, the armor is Scale armor (well... Mythril Scale Armor with Copper Gilding (for enhanced spellcasting) and the Comfortable and Unsoilable enchantments), but I'm not sure it I should draw it as scale. See, the aesthetics of the character's culture is loosely based on, among other things, the idea of what Rome would look like if it lasted into the late Middle Ages / very early Renaissance. As such, I may end up drawing the armor as a variant of Lorica Segmentata armor... However, before I make my decision, I have to ask: would the two types of armor (Scale and LS) be comparable in terms of effectiveness as armor?

Second of all, assuming I don't switch to drawing LS armor, I want to know how the scales actually link together, and the advantages of different methods of doing so. So far, I think I get how lamellar works (short strings or something similar holding scales together both horizontally and vertically and on an individual basis), but after looking at pictures of scale armor on the internet, I'm not so sure, since they look a lot more flexible than I'd imagine my idea of lamellar would be.

Third of all, since my game allows you to target different parts of your target, and suits of armor are considered to protect your entire body, I'm wondering what sort of helmet would "match" the protectiveness of scale armor. I know, that's probably a really tough question to answer, with all the different things to consider, but I need to know for the purposes of designing the helmet as it would look in my game.

I'll probably have more questions as I get feedback... Anyway, thanks in advance for any help!

[Sean Powell]

Roman and scale you want to be looking at a lorica squamata not segmentata. a quick google search will give you a great number of images.

http://www.mambri.com/legio%20fabrica.data/scam10.jpg

They are comparable in the sense that 2 is comparable to 8 but they are not equivilent. Scale armor allows greater possibility for a blade tips to slide up into a vital target. The scales may not be attached to a foundation garment but instead "stapled" to each other (and maybe also to a foundation garment) which would decrease the liklihood of lifting for exposure but at a cost of mobility.

I don't think it's so mucht a question of location of targeting but of direction (location of target relative to hand position is direction if you want to be technical). There are also solid helms with drapes of scales below the browband that might suffer from the same technique.

If you want medievalized Roman armor you are almost definitely want some of the Itallian historical revival armor. In this case the only 'scale' I can think of is actually sold plated embossed to look like scale. Negorli did a number of beautiful pieces.

Good luck with your game.

Sean

[Vladimir]

If you are looking for examples as if Rome had survived up into the renaissance then perhaps you should download a copy of Heroic Armor of the Renaissance or simply look online for some of that era's parade armour. It was very fashionable for a while to have something that hearkened back to antiquity while still being thoroughly modern (their modern, not ours) in construction.


http://www.amazon.com/Heroic-Armor-Ital ... 0810965291

[losthelm]

There are a few ways to accomplish a scale effect.
Laceing plates to each other much like lammellar, useing rings much like chainmail.
And Attaching plates to a base garment with staples, rivets or thread/cord.

Personally I would go with pangolin scales because they are extinct.

[Vladimir]

No they're not.

Though there are a few extinct types of pangolins, they are not extinct in general.

There are a few extinct types of humans too, but we still seem to be doing ok.

[jadebrain]

Roman and scale you want to be looking at a lorica squamata not segmentata. a quick google search will give you a great number of images.

http://www.mambri.com/legio%20fabrica.data/scam10.jpg

They are comparable in the sense that 2 is comparable to 8 but they are not equivilent. Scale armor allows greater possibility for a blade tips to slide up into a vital target. The scales may not be attached to a foundation garment but instead "stapled" to each other (and maybe also to a foundation garment) which would decrease the liklihood of lifting for exposure but at a cost of mobility.

I don't think it's so mucht a question of location of targeting but of direction (location of target relative to hand position is direction if you want to be technical). There are also solid helms with drapes of scales below the browband that might suffer from the same technique.

If you want medievalized Roman armor you are almost definitely want some of the Itallian historical revival armor. In this case the only 'scale' I can think of is actually sold plated embossed to look like scale. Negorli did a number of beautiful pieces.

Good luck with your game.

Sean

Ah, I wasn't even aware that Romans used scale armor at all... Thanks!

I tried searching for "Negroli Scale Armor," and I found a nice (I guess) interpretation of a scale helmet, though it doesn't look very roman-esque. I suppose I could just go with the general idea of how the scales look and adapt it.

[Len Parker]

Some fantasy scale armour http://www.armchair-armoury.co.uk/aimee.htm

[Len Parker]

Really good modern roman scale here http://www.armae.com/antiquite/113cuirasses.htm click details for large pics.

[losthelm]

Vladimir thanks, it's good to know the scaled mammals are still roaming the earth.

[Sean Powell]

Negroli did a lot of fantastic stuff but he had contemporaries doing very good work as well. I think there is an associate breastplate for that helmet but I don't have a link. Try different search terms. "Negroli Parade Armor" (or Armour) may get better results.

Also, you might look into some versions of anime. No not the cartoons from Japan but the style of armor. It's eastern European (Poland, Hungary, etc.) but you some times find armor like this:
http://pics.myarmoury.com/anime002.jpg
Which in a way is the banded style of the Lorica Segmentata with the cosmetics of the Lorica Squamata projected on a 15th century shape. Please note that these are NOT flexible acceross the upper chest, they only look that way. From the shoulders to the first full band is solid riveted (look at the gaps) but below that flexes. Also, the other armor worn with an anime looks even less Roman.

Luck!
Sean

[Len Parker]

More scale http://therionarms.com/armor/armor5.jpg
http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/museum ... olska.html

[jadebrain]

Thanks for all the pictures!

Also, I just remembered a question I had forgotten to ask, and one which may change things quite a bit.

See, the character that I'm going to draw isn't human. She's a member of a race that evolved from marsupials, and in the game, one of the racial features is that females may treat their pouches as utility belts. As such... How far-fetched it would be to allow relatively easy access to the pouch while still maintaining the protectiveness of armor? Would adding a "flap" to the belly of the armor that could be opened and closed be enough, or would it be more complex than that? I understand that this is getting into things which real armor examples don't cover...

[Len Parker]

Look at c.1140 http://livinghistory.cz/node/57 I believe the gap at the stomach is so the shirt and the skirt will close up when sitting on a horse. I think.

[jadebrain]

Look at c.1140 http://livinghistory.cz/node/57 I believe the gap at the stomach is so the shirt and the skirt will close up when sitting on a horse. I think.

Well, that's good for dedicated cavalry, but the character I'm going to draw won't likely be on a horse.

One thing I'm thinking of is perhaps having holes on the side of the belly part, reminiscent of some hoodie sweatshirts. It would seem to me like it would cover enough to be protective, while still allowing access to the pouch... but I'm no expert.

[Sean Powell]

Thanks for all the pictures!

Also, I just remembered a question I had forgotten to ask, and one which may change things quite a bit.

See, the character that I'm going to draw isn't human. She's a member of a race that evolved from marsupials, and in the game, one of the racial features is that females may treat their pouches as utility belts. As such... How far-fetched it would be to allow relatively easy access to the pouch while still maintaining the protectiveness of armor? Would adding a "flap" to the belly of the armor that could be opened and closed be enough, or would it be more complex than that? I understand that this is getting into things which real armor examples don't cover...

THAT is a completely different topic.

In late period armor access to anything like a face, neck, forearm whatever is restricted by a number of buckles, straps, latches or spring-pins. It is not intended to be easy to get into or out of anything. Anything that is easy access is easy weapon vulnerability. It's also an area of complex manuverability in vertibrates as our spines allow a lot of range of motion. To create a safe but accessable entry near the belly without sacraficing mobility or protectoin would be an engineering feat. Then again that race would have centuries of experimentation to find a solution while we have a few days and a forum... but it only has to be as believeable as the rest of the book.

For starters you might work with a partial scale solution with the scale being over the belly region and plate over the upper torso. The scale could be layered double thick and allow a snaking access to the pouch.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-YjVK ... 1509_7.jpg

If you went with a gothic style then the lower placard might be hinged with a buckle or other closure near the top and allow it to drop open for access.
http://minimumwagehistorian.files.wordp ... th-cen.jpg

Either of those however will make the belly/pouch region more vulnerable. A better solution might be an external 'bat untility-pouch' that can be added to the front of the armor. This is also a more convenient solution if female marsupial warriors are less common then males. (which is likely as children are carried in pouches after gestation thus increasing the time in which mothers would endanger children by fighting which is an evolutionary bad idea.

Best of luck with the book.
Sean