Roman Dice Tower?

[igelkott]

I ran into this from a game forum:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vettweiss- ... Dice_Tower

Note the link at the bottom to a german museum. Is this for real? First 20 sided dice, now dice towers?

[Mac]

That's Über kool.

My suspicious nature makes me wonder about the dragons flanking the stairs. Does anyone here know something about late roman dragons?

Mac

[Henrik Granlid]

Mac, got a source for the D20?

[Mac]

Mac, got a source for the D20?

Henrik,

Ielkott is the OP here, but when I googled roman 20 sided dice I got this. http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/se ... ons/551072 and this http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot_ ... ID=4205385

Mac

[jester]

My wife saw one of these about a year ago and demanded I make them. I made a design and made a test piece using the laser and some cardboard but I couldn't get the plasma cutter to do a decent job on the details. I shopped around for quotes from waterjet places but never got any responses. If I can find the designfile I'll post it.

[woodwose]

Wow, I really want to make a couple of these.

[Mac]

I sort of get the impression that they are a thing what was invented since the last time I played D&D in the late '70s....and yet, here is this one that is believed to be late Roman....

Does anyone know of any other historical dice towers?

Mac

[jester]

http://members.chello.at/preinfalk/inde ... lturm.html

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/di ... id=7253636

http://enifpegasus.blogspot.com/2012/09 ... omano.html

If anyone has better info on that wooden tower from the Cairo Museum I'd love to know the date and dimensions. They don't have a website and they don't allow photography so, as far as I know, the picture in that first link is the only photo available. If it *is* in the Museum of Egyptian Antiquities then it's Roman period at the absolute latest.

[Mac]

Thank you, Jester! I feel much better about these now.

Have you read the article by Corbett?

Mac

[jester]

Thank you, Jester! I feel much better about these now.

Have you read the article by Corbett?

Mac

No. But I've watched the YouTube video at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qG9s4SRI14

[Mac]

So, looking at Edgar's reconstruction, I see that he has one baffle and then the exit stairs.





But, when I look at this image of the Bonn tower I think I am seeing two baffles. I see a baffle directly behind "HOSTIS", the rivets of which are visible between the letters "V" and "I" and "O" and "S" of "VICTOS". It seems to be in the form of stairs as well.

The lower baffle, (which is the only one that Edgar installs) must be riveted to the near wall between "HOSTIS" and "DELETA". It would not be visible in this view because it proceeds directly away from the camera.



Now, the curious thing is that in this view, there seems to be no trace of the upper baffle that is so readily visible in the other picture.


Mac

[Mac]

No, wait, I take that back.

In his finished tower he has two baffles as well as the stairs.



....but I still don't understand why the upper baffle is not visible in this view of the Bonn tower....



Mac

[Mac]

Thank you, Jester! I feel much better about these now.

Have you read the article by Corbett?

Mac

No. But I've watched the YouTube video at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qG9s4SRI14

Splendid!

Mac

[Mac]

While I am pasting up pics, I'll put up the Portuguese one as well.



Mac

[Mac]

I believe that a nicely done, laser cut tower with Gothic tracery would be a salable item.

Mac

[jester]

So, looking at Edgar's reconstruction, I see that he has one baffle and then the exit stairs.





But, when I look at this image of the Bonn tower I think I am seeing two baffles. I see a baffle directly behind "HOSTIS", the rivets of which are visible between the letters "V" and "I" and "O" and "S" of "VICTOS". It seems to be in the form of stairs as well.

The lower baffle, (which is the only one that Edgar installs) must be riveted to the near wall between "HOSTIS" and "DELETA". It would not be visible in this view because it proceeds directly away from the camera.



Now, the curious thing is that in this view, there seems to be no trace of the upper baffle that is so readily visible in the other picture.


Mac

I'm going to call shenanigans. I don't think those are the same objects. Look at the bottoms of the two pieces and you'll see they are different. The top object also lacks the rivets between HOSTIS and DELETA. A reconstruction, perhaps?

Nope the rivets are there. I wasn't looking close enough.

[jester]

I believe that a nicely done, laser cut tower with Gothic tracery would be a salable item.

Mac

I agree. The laser I have access to won't cut metal. The plasma cutter I have access to will cut metal, but it won't handle the finer details and I think it would take hours to clean off the slag from the cuts. A high grade commercial laser or water-jet would solve these problems, but I haven't found a shop that wants to do small batch jobs like this. Which is a pity because these are really incredibly simple to model.

Oh, here's an image of Mr. Cobbett with the reconstructed Richborough tower. http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/spiel ... 65-10.html

And the German language wikipedia entry for Würfelturm lists the wooden Egyptian tower as coming from the Qustul excavation site (lower Nubia). This site, again from the German language entry, lists game boards being found in the X site excavations which date between 400AD-600AD. The A group excavations were from much earlier and, so far as I can tell, only included pottery.

[Mac]

Oh, here's an image of Mr. Cobbett with the reconstructed Richborough tower. http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/spiel ... 65-10.html

I'll just paste that in then. I saw this reconstruction in the video, but the camera did not dwell on it.



The original is said to be bone. Them's mighty wide bones! I guess we are probably talking whale vertebrae. I don't guess any of us will be copying that one in the original material.....



Mac

[Mac]

I'm going to call shenanigans. I don't think those are the same objects. Look at the bottoms of the two pieces and you'll see they are different. The top object also lacks the rivets between HOSTIS and DELETA. A reconstruction, perhaps?

Nope the rivets are there. I wasn't looking close enough.

There's something going on here. The one in the first pic has a couple of "berry-shaped" finials that the other does not have. Curiouser and curiouser.

Mac

[Cet]

Jester I sent you a PM re- cutting

[jester]

Gotta love the German obsession with games.

http://www.ole-hendrik-design.de/der-ku ... f-terra-x/

This site has another re-construction of the tower. Two baffles.

This google book link has a nice picture of the tower. I believe the original only had two baffles.

I've been looking a the images above and I think those are the same towers. The gaps at the corners match, just for instance. I think the finials and the base were removed from one of the pictures for some reason.

Looking at the picture I'm pretty sure there are only two baffles in the original.

[jester]

Two last little updates about this.

1) I can't find my files. They may be on the broken Toshiba in which case I'll eventually recover them. But since I got contacted by someone who can do laser/water cutting I don't want to wait that long. So I'm going to re-create the files. Which is actually pretty simple. I plan to record this using Google Hangouts so I can put the process on to YouTube. If you're interested in watching live let me know and I'll send you the Hangout invite. Probably this weekend. Maybe some evening earlier this week.

2) The words on the front of the Bonn tower are 3 groups of 2 sets of six letter words. This sort of word arrangement was popular in conjunction with the Roman game of Duodecim Scriptorum (Twelve Letters). A possible fore-runner of backgammon and other tables games, it was played on a board with three sets of twelve spaces. The twelve spaces of each row were divided into two and the spaces frequently had words written in the spaces or the letters themselves formed the spaces. The Egyptian tower was (apparently, I haven't confirmed this) found in a grave/tomb with a duodecim scriptorum board. The words on the Bonn tower point towards a close association of this sort of device with the game.

[James B.]

The Romans were fond of a game much like D&D, only for them it was a post apocalyptic sci fi where civilization had fallen and much of their current tech was lost

[jester]

The Romans were fond of a game much like D&D, only for them it was a post apocalyptic sci fi where civilization had fallen and much of their current tech was lost

Took me a moment, but that was funny as hell.

[Vladimir]

That's funny.

[jester]

I finally re-visited this. It was suggested that I try 3D printing. The initial quote on the test design (50% size of the original) was $850 for a model that was 7" high. So 3D printing in metal is right out.

I'll shop the designs around to some cutting places to see if I can get better prices from them, but it looks like a metal dice tower of this sort is at least a $200 price point and probably more like $400 if you include all operating and labor costs. Kind of a bummer.

Wood designs are much more reasonable, price-wise, so I'll also jump back to that and see what kind of firm quotes I'm getting.

[Cian of Storvik]

You could look into metal trim companies that do metal embossed banding. Check out Frank Morrow Company.
Search on their website for GOTHIC WINDOWS PERFORATED. I thought bout making one out of this, but wound-up just doing a plain cardboard one for gaming.
Frank Morrow does custom manufacturing as well (with minimum orders).
-Cian