I have a few things I am working on for a klappviser (1385-1390ish) project I am curios about. I use the word incorrectly best I can tell since I believe the klappviser is the center hinge attachment not the viser style itself. But I did not mean the hounskull pointed kind but the more flat kind like pictured below. I have not found what the correct name is for this type of viser. Also I know these would have been the exception at the time but the Germans always seemed to use things for longer. For example the central mount of visers itself. And the art from the time does show a few.
1. Did original klappvisers use straps to secure them from coming open like people put on them today? I do not see an indication of the attachment points for thse straps on examples from musuems. Is this something done just for modern combat?
2. What forms of decoration where there for these visers. I have seen some with brass trim and some with etching but not sure if the etching is based on historical examples.
Also feel free to share any nice examples you can think of. Always looking for more to have for reference.
Dogface is the most commonly used modern term for the rounded face that goes with the Klapp-arrangement.
1. Not as far as I can tell from miniatures. It would seem these were mostly secured either by spring-pin, by a small hook or by the hinge actually being kinda tight. You'll see a lot of solutions like this on BotN-helmets. Sometimes, there is a "hook" at the bottom of it that you can hook a tab of maile to, keeping it shut.
2. Brass trim with hand-etched latin verses are, far as I know, based off of the churburg bascinets, but that's about it.
I am certain somebody with more knowledge on the matter can answer this.
FWIW, klappvisier simply means "folding visor". Hundsgugel (hound's hood), hounskull, or dog-face all refer to the long pointed nose on the visor, like the nose of a greyhound.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
For modern convenience I've always heard the term shovel-face visor used to indicate the flatter visors most commonly associated with klappvisier hinged bascinets. Since a klappvisier bascinet can have a houndksull style pointed visor, for clarity's sake you have to be careful when using the term klappvisier when you really mean the helmet with a single centered hinge and a flat, non snouted visor. Klappvisier really only refers to the hinging / mounting mechanism.
Ernst wrote:FWIW, klappvisier simply means "folding visor". Hundsgugel (hound's hood), hounskull, or dog-face all refer to the long pointed nose on the visor, like the nose of a greyhound.
Historically speaking, the Hundsgugel that is mentioned in in 14th and 15th c. German sources was a maille hood.
I am not sure which 19th c. author got the wrong end of the stick, writing that it was a pointy nosed visor. And I am afraid that it is so engrained by now in the armour community, it will not change anymore.
To Sulla's question 1, I've floated the notion that historically they may have used a small loop of cord or thong around the hook-tab to the camail to give it convenient lash-down. Don't know of any artistic depiction, or even a what's-that-there in an illumination that might have been one -- this in a time and place when three tiny widely spaced stitches or knots might be seen over the brow of a bascinet, apparently to secure the front of the padding within, and marked with simple little tick-marks.
I agree with Konstantin in terms of practicality but sadly have never found a single shred of evidence to support it. So many of the extant visors have that little finial in steel or latten.
So from what I can tell by searching on the internet even though it would probably be more correct to call the viser a shovel-face visor most people just call it a Klappviser. I wish some one would figure out a catchy name that would stick
And for the attachment to hold down the viser it seems to be up in the air at the moment.
Ernst wrote:FWIW, klappvisier simply means "folding visor". Hundsgugel (hound's hood), hounskull, or dog-face all refer to the long pointed nose on the visor, like the nose of a greyhound.
Historically speaking, the Hundsgugel that is mentioned in in 14th and 15th c. German sources was a maille hood.
I am not sure which 19th c. author got the wrong end of the stick, writing that it was a pointy nosed visor. And I am afraid that it is so engrained by now in the armour community, it will not change anymore.
Trying to imagine a mail hood that looks like a dog....
So from what I can tell by searching on the internet even though it would probably be more correct to call the viser a shovel-face visor most people just call it a Klappviser. I wish some one would figure out a catchy name that would stick
And for the attachment to hold down the viser it seems to be up in the air at the moment.
I used a hidden spring clip on my SCA bascinet, it allowed me to remove the visor in one very fast motion. Beneath was a fixed grill. This allowed me to remove my visor while still being "list legal" and just throw it aside or let it hang from a chain.
A couple folks got a little stressed seeing a visor off during combat until they saw the grill.
Something subtle would be an improvement over a strap.
So from what I can tell by searching on the internet even though it would probably be more correct to call the viser a shovel-face visor most people just call it a Klappviser. I wish some one would figure out a catchy name that would stick
And for the attachment to hold down the viser it seems to be up in the air at the moment.
I used a hidden spring clip on my SCA bascinet, it allowed me to remove the visor in one very fast motion. Beneath was a fixed grill. This allowed me to remove my visor while still being "list legal" and just throw it aside or let it hang from a chain.
A couple folks got a little stressed seeing a visor off during combat until they saw the grill.
Something subtle would be an improvement over a strap.
Would you mind sharing some pictures of that setup?
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
Ernst wrote:FWIW, klappvisier simply means "folding visor". Hundsgugel (hound's hood), hounskull, or dog-face all refer to the long pointed nose on the visor, like the nose of a greyhound.
Historically speaking, the Hundsgugel that is mentioned in in 14th and 15th c. German sources was a maille hood.
I am not sure which 19th c. author got the wrong end of the stick, writing that it was a pointy nosed visor. And I am afraid that it is so engrained by now in the armour community, it will not change anymore.
Trying to imagine a mail hood that looks like a dog....
Found an image of an interesting decoration down the ridge of a helmet. Looks to be metal and not painted on since it is the same colore as the other brass colored elements. Might be interesting to combine the decoration of the two helmets.
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Trying to imagine a mail hood that looks like a dog....
