How do I bring down the shoulders in a Coat of Plates?

[jamesedgarson]

Gentles,

Confusing title, but it is essentially what it is (but then, isn't everything?), I'm trying to make a coats of plate, I'm using a basic "T" shape for the shell, so distance around the waist, then distance from waist over shoulders (neck hole between the shoulders ofcourse) to lower back...hopefully you can get a mental picture of this...the issue I get, is the human torso is not built this way, your traps ride higher than your clavical, so the shoulders of the coat end up riding high...I've considered cutting and stitching as I reckon it's just excess material bunching...is there a method I'm missing here?....am I explaining my problem well enough?...

Any help would be great,...for speed and easy of design I would like to stick with the "T" pattern, perhaps large neck hole?...ideas, advice, opinions are most welcome.

[Milan H]

Nope, not missing a thing. This is a basic problem with a lot of armor "patterns." This slope is important for a good fit. Its about a 1:6 slope for most people. If you are using leather, sew the shoulder seams so the front overlaps the back. DO NOT sew them "right sides" together, or you may have a very uncomfortable, chafing seam at the shoulder. No fun.

Edit: Depending on the leather, it may stretch to a more comfortable shape. Some shoulder designs may reduce the issue, but its so simple to do, why not?

Cheers!

[Sevastian]

It can be done using one piece if you cut a slit at the tops of the shoulders from the outer edge in towards the neck and either sew or rivet the overlap thus creating a conical shoulder mantle. Job done. For further fitment if need be cut the pattern apart completely at the top and tailor to the individual.

[Konstantin the Red]

As Sebastian describes: what you want to do is cut a dart, a narrow-angled triangular cut, at that part of the strap right on the top of your shoulder. Pull the edges together and secure.

The lowest profile version of the job might be to just halve each shoulder strap, taking out that little triangle, skive down the flesh side of one half up near the stitching line you will do, skive down the grain side of the other the same way, so that now you have these tapering tabs, glue these tapering faces to each other with household cement that dries flexible, or rubber cement if that's what you have, and go to sewing these two together. The opposing taperings of the pieces lap together like a scarf joint in blacksmithing, and the result is a smooth, single-thickness joining-up and no great lumpy cliff of a catch-edge anywhere.

There's also no rule at all against laying a cap of leather, possibly decoratively cut, atop this darted, pushed-together cut, and securing it with that. Depends how much thickness of leather you really feel like pushing through -- that can be a pretty big deal, with using a punch and maybe pliers to pull the sewing needle through.

Using a V-gouger to make the line you stitch sinks the stitches below the grain of the leather to preserve them from wear and also means you're shoving that stitching needle through less thickness of leather, and that can be a real help.

[schreiber]

ideas, advice, opinions are most welcome.

I think every armorer should know at least basic sewing and should have followed a commercially produced pattern at some point. It helps to conceptualize how a two dimensional object is turned into a 3-dimensional object.

I think in general every man should know at least basic sewing, so as to be better able to recognize potential wives.

[Steve S.]

what you want to do is cut a dart

This.

See here:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gall ... es/cop.htm

Where the back panel meets the front panel at the shoulders, this should not be a straight line at the plane of the torso before the pieces are sewn together. They should able away from each other so that when sewn together it pulls tight and follows the contour of the shoulder.

Basically, if you made the shoulder portion a single piece of material and cut a head hole in it, and put your head through it and draped the piece down your front and back, you would end up with a "pucker" of material at your shoulders. If you pinned this pucker along a line of your shoulder and cut it out, then sewed the remaining pieces back together, you will see the effect.

Steve

[Sean Powell]

So grab a coathanger, fold the fabric in half, place the hangar at the neck opening and trace that line. Or lay out a business shirt or something else that is tailored. That will tell you how to get the fabric shape right over the shoulder...

HOWEVER! a business shirt and suits as not meant for fighting in. You can make a CoP look fantastic on you or a manequin but have all the mobility of a tin knight from a landscape store. the shoulders straps should be aprox 3 fingers width wide and fairly close to the neck. There won't be a lot of slope over that distance and some people don't even worry about it. All of the material armward of that needs to be able to flex and shift or not be there. You should be able to reach over your head with your elbow up and hand touching the opposite ear WITHOUT lifting the weight of the CoP on the shoulders.

If you look at the Charles de Boise inset gusset sleeves you will see that they are very narrow over the shoulder near the neck and the arm sythe is very full to allow range of moment. My wife made me a very well tailored arming doublet to hang my leg armor and after fighting 1 melee I had a chiurgeon use shears to cut the armpit and tear open some mobility. You won't have that option if it is armor. Shoulder-straps should be narrow (and slightly sloped)

sean

[Ironbadger]

Absolutely.

I grew up in a family business in which I learned sewing by hand as a child.
So for me, sewing was just a skill everyone in the family had, and I never saw it as unusual.

It was a bit of culture shock when I discovered that few people nowadays can sew, or understand why its important.

The point being, since I knew how to sew and follow patterns....I always had an easy time patterning armor, because I understood that the materials must be cut to form 3D shapes.

I have taught quick and dirty hand sewing and darting to others, and its amazing the way a spark seems to suddenly glow in their eyes when they finally understand how it works.

-Badger-

I think every armorer should know at least basic sewing and should have followed a commercially produced pattern at some point. It helps to conceptualize how a two dimensional object is turned into a 3-dimensional object.

[RoundTop]

remember to do the measurements and checks with your gambison on (if you wear one) and chainmail (if you wear it too).

I have fairly wide and flat shoulders, which the gambison accents as well, so I need almost no darting for mine, but with sloped shoulders you'll need more compensation.

[Konstantin the Red]

Oh, and not Charles de Boise, Idaho, but -- mais -- de Blois, making of it a noise that sounds like what if Dracula were French, "blhWAA." All rammed together into one syllable that rhymes with "blah," said a touch throaty.

Sean, take your autocorrect and wack its peepee.

Sorry, Charlie. We'll get to Idaho sometime. We promise.

[Harry Marinakis]

I made a pattern for my CoP out of a thin craft cardboard but I split the pattern over the top of my shoulders and made a 5-inch overlap there. This allowed me to tailor the shoulders so that the CoP fabric sloped properly. The overlap also provided a thicker area to which to attach my spaulders, and gave me a little more padding over my clavicle. With a pair of scissors and some duct tape, you can add or subtract cardboard to or from the pattern, if necessary, to tweak it just right.

I sewed the overlap and put in a couple of rivets through the overlapping leather for extra security.

Be sure to wear your gorget and all of your undergarments and clothing when making a pattern for your CoP.

To do it right, you have to have an assistant who can help with measuring and marking while you are wearing the pattern and fabric of the CoP. Do not try to do this by yourself.

I'll try to post some photos later today.

[Harry Marinakis]

Tailored shoulders with a leather CoP. The shoulder slope is anatomically correct. The leather was cut over my shoulder and over-lapped. Sewing and rivets hold the overlap together.