SCA beginner Armor Commission

[Tensvelger]

Hello all, I'm both new to this forum and new to the SCA. I've recently joined a heavy fighter group in southern Minnesota. I've been actively fighting for about half a year now and have authorized in sword and shield but up to this point have been wearing some castoff loaner armor that is functional but ill-fitting and pretty much falling apart.

My marshall advised me to come to this forum as a means of finding an armorer whom I could commission to get some armor of my own and so, here I am. I know a lot of guys make their own armor and I think I'll get to that point eventually, but as of right now, short term, I'm interested in and financially capable of just getting myself started on my own armor with some commission work.

Being a bit new to this whole heavy fighting thing, I have a general idea of what I'm looking for but not a large amount of technical knowledge to draw from in articulating my requests, but I'll try my best here. What I was thinking for the body was a scale vest, pauldrons for the shoulders and for the arms something akin to this (http://www.electricchair.com/wp-content ... Mens02.jpg). The helmet I do intend to make myself and I have a functional one for the interim period. As for legs, I'm fairly open to suggestion. I do believe I want seperate articulated leg armor instead of just having the scale shirt hang down for protection, though.

I have a solid cash foundation for all this so if you're an armorer and this sounds like something you could or would like to tackle please reply to this thread or just message me privately.

All the best,
Hans Velger

[Caius705]

Awesome. Welcome to the group. I'm a big fan of period style armor, so I'd love to go ahead and suggest you glance through the threads on here and find a historic style kit. It sounds like what you're asking for is a mix of Eastern/Byzantine (if by scale you meant lamellar) and 15th century European, which is a bit of an odd mix. Your call, but in my (admittedly limited) experience, I've found that a matching kit looks better and functions better in general.

Anyway, welcome to the archive.

[Belemrys]

The best advice I can give you is this, go to http://effigiesandbrasses.com click the search button and find a time period and location/s that you are interested in researching. Look at the effigies and determine what type of armor you in that period you like.

Some people find armor they like first and then go research the period. That is a viable option but I prefer to pick a historical period I would enjoy learning about in general and seeing what armor looked like in different countries.

Those arms you linked look interesting, the elbows look flat and articulated rerebraces...odd...but to be fair I have only done any extensive research in 14th century stuff.

Once you know what period and look you are looking for we can help you find armorer's that can make that type of armor. Also, it is important to understand that some armorer's do more munitions type armor and others make historical reproductions that have minor subtleties that make all the difference. The latter are way more expensive because it takes time and care to make it right. The choice of how historical you want to look is completely up to you but be mindful of that before you spend any money.

[Ansila]

Hi Hans, what's your budget?

If you're interested in lamellar check out Polar Bear forge:

http://www.polarbearforge.com/lamellar.htm

Legs there are numerous options, I've been wearing these for the past two years with no complaints:

http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon ... 424-p.html

But I did just order a new leg harness from Aesir since the above legs weren't fitting properly anymore due to my legs shrinking:

http://aesirmetalwyrks.com/legs.html

Not sure if this helps, but figured I should and try to help a fellow Northshielder.

[bigfredb]

Welcome to the Archive!!

Be careful who you commission. Search these forums for reviews, look at pictures, communicate with the armourer. If there is an armourer in your area, I would highly suggest working WITH them and learn to make your own.

Some other long time armourers with good reputations (not a complete list):

James River Armoury - http://www.jamesriverarmoury.com/

Bokalo - http://www.bokalosarmoury.com/

Anshelm Arms - http://www.anshelmarms.com/

Iron Monger - http://ironmongerarmory.com/

Ice Falcon - http://www.icefalcon.com/

Good Luck!!

[losthelm]

I know torvaldr does leather scale coats as well as other hardened leather armour.

[Tensvelger]

Thanks guys, this is all very helpful. Insofar as historical periods and the armor a given fighter will wear is concerned, I've heard by and large there are two major types. People who go for full period recreation, and people who try and essentially make efficient but not period-specific "sport" armor. I'd say I'm probably more into the latter - as far as all this goes I'm primarily interested in heavy fighting as a sport and less so as historical recreation, although that is something I plan to delve deeper into as time goes on. For now, I just want practical armor that fits me well that I can move/fight easily in.

As far as the scales go I was thinking fish scales versus lamellar. Really, honestly, for no other reason than I like the aesthetic. Is it possible to have something like this (http://theringlord.com/images/products/ ... levest.jpg) but with leather or a gambeson underneath and then you could just sew or rivet the pauldrons on? That was the kind of what I was thinking, but again, I have relatively very little actual technical knowledge of these things.

And as for a budget, I have roughly $1000 to start with here, due to an unexpected but certainly not unwelcome windfall.

[Caius705]

Thanks guys, this is all very helpful. Insofar as historical periods and the armor a given fighter will wear is concerned, I've heard by and large there are two major types. People who go for full period recreation, and people who try and essentially make efficient but not period-specific "sport" armor. I'd say I'm probably more into the latter - as far as all this goes I'm primarily interested in heavy fighting as a sport and less so as historical recreation, although that is something I plan to delve deeper into as time goes on. For now, I just want practical armor that fits me well that I can move/fight easily in.

As far as the scales go I was thinking fish scales versus lamellar. Really, honestly, for no other reason than I like the aesthetic. Is it possible to have something like this (http://theringlord.com/images/products/ ... levest.jpg) but with leather or a gambeson underneath and then you could just sew or rivet the pauldrons on? That was the kind of what I was thinking, but again, I have relatively very little actual technical knowledge of these things.

And as for a budget, I have roughly $1000 to start with here, due to an unexpected but certainly not unwelcome windfall.

Well, if you want a sports kit, I'd skip on the scale. Aluminum lamellar, with hidden arms (or bazubands) and legs (all aluminum) is a pretty good compromise between sport and looks, in my opinion. Won't weigh much, will look good and be pretty protective.

[Ansila]

Zoombang is also an easy torso armor that can be covered with a tunic.

[Steve S.]

Hi Hans! Welcome to the Archive.

Here is some of my advice for acquiring armour:

1) Decide on a time period first. Too many people buy a cool piece of armour and then try to back-end into a time period. If you are interested in "minimal armour" then consider earlier period or do a less-armoured late period impression.

There are many threads in the "I want to be a..." forum that can help you decide on a persona and kit it out.

2) If you are going to commission armour, I would recommend only working with armourers that you can visit for fittings or be able to ship mock-ups of your limbs and/or torso to. You can make mock-ups by wearing an old piece of clothing and pasting yourself over with pieces of duct tape, then cutting away the form and stuffing it with newspaper or old plastic grocery bags.

Steve

[Ingvarr]

$1000 is a good start, but it will go fast once you start buying armour, especially custom. accdntprone here on the archive has a great reputation for cheap, good helmets although I have no personal experience with them. Helmets can be a huge chunk of money. You might also want to browse the classifieds section. There were some arms similar to those posted there fairly recently.

[Vladimir]

How handy are you with tools and how much free time do you have.
Note, watching TV can count as free time for some of this.

Lamellar is pretty easy to lace up and holds together well, while scale is a pain in the ass. Trust me, I've used both. Polarbear forge makes his #10 plate that laces like a lamellar and looks like scale.

Accidentprone and Hjalmr make excellent low end spangenhelms. Just what you want for an early period impression that scale armour would imply.

You can save some more money by making your own arm and leg armour and simply buying a set of cops. They can be made of a variety of materials and are not difficult if you chose a simple style.

Gorgets are pretty easy to make, but keep in mind that it is your throat you are protecting. If you don't feel confident in your crafting skills buy one.

Half gauntlets are easy as well, when paired up with a good basket hilt they provide excellent protection.

There are numerous articles here about how to disguise modern footwear.

If you decide to go with the sports equipment route, please invest in a nice tunic to wear over it. I recommend Linen Garb (Adric13). But there are lots of other clothing vendors here as well.

[RoundTop]

rough back of napkin $ numbers for SCA combat (basic requirements, assuming buying):

Helm $150 (basic) -> $1000+ (very nice)
Knees/thighs - $150 (metal knees from RFH+plastic) -> $500+ (full metal in spring stainless)
Elbows - $40 (RFH) -> $400+ (full metal arms)
Gorget - $50 (WTC/windrose)-> $200 (depending on coverage, material)
Body - $200 (plastic)-> $1500+ (full metal cheaply, goes up a lot more from this)
Sword - $75 -> $150 (Depending on fittings)
Shield - $75 (wood) -> $400 (metal with custom paint)
Baseline total: near $800 for basic basic kit.
This is all assuming using a basket hilt on the sword and shield so you don't need a gauntlet.

Adds:

Shoulders $100->$300
Chainmail $300-$1500 depending on butted, stainless, riveted, welded, titanium
Geaves $300
Vambraces / Rerebraces $300
Gauntlets $300->$1000 depending on style and material

Not to scare you, just giving you some realistic numbers.

[jamesedgarson]

Greetings Hans,

Welcome to the Archive!!!

When I first started out, I asked the very same questions and a knight, (actually MY knight now) gave me some good advice: pick your helm first, and then work your way down from that. If you are fighting in a generic SCA styled helm, nothing period specific, and all you want to do is have fun in the sport...my advice is to just go sport armour but hidden. So, hardened leather or hidden plastic.

A super easy fix; go Norse or dark age- hidden plastic legs under linen baggy pants (linengarb.com have some super cool Rus pants), a cuirass of padding and plastic under a tunic, you could run with elbow and knee pads and go with nylon elbow/knee cops from valkyrieforge.com they run about $10 USD per cop, so for elbows and knees it would be $40 USD total....Torvaldr leather demi's, Master Torvaldr also does knees, elbows and other items in leather and he is one of the best in the known world for working with that medium. If you want to stick with metal, perhaps Rough from the Hammer or Bokalo's Armoury.

If you notice though, several times folk have given you advice as to picking a historical area. There is a reason behind this; the SCA IS a historical society. So, although I'm no period perfectionist, it is strongly advised you at least make an attempt at historical expression. Thus the reason I say Norse/Dark age because it's rather forgiving.

In a nutshell, this isn't LARP. This is the SCA. You don't have to show up in Maximilian arms, but you also shouldn't show up looking like an Orc out of LOTR, right? Take care to remember that the Marshals Handbook does state that all mundane sports gear logo's MUST be hidden and that one must make every effort to hide mundane sports equipment. I am totally NOT trying to rain on your parade, and I am SUPER happy you are out there fighting and having fun. And it took me, and STILL is taking me forever and a day to get the right armour on my backside, but have a care. There are reasons folk are gently pushing you to historical periods.

Keep having fun!!!

yours in service,
James Edgarson
Squire Viscount Sir Menchen Brechen

[Henrik Granlid]

Here's the thing with the kit, even when doing sports armour, you'll find that a lot of people want to land you in some form of period, either by hiding it or by combining it with other period items. This means that your articulated arms together with a scale torso will be hard to convince other people about, because although it might be cool, it's a different sort of cool and somewhat fantasy/hollywood inspired.

My two pieces of advice for a cheap kit that can get either or of what you asked would be to go either:

14th century mafia, this means bascinet with aventail, it means a coat of plate (made of plastic, covered in upholstery fabric if you want something light and easy), articulated arms (since you want them), spaulders and pretty much any sort of leg defense from padded quises with simple cops, to splint armour with an intergrated cop, or a full on handforged leg harness made of steel. This is one of the easier sports kits to wear openly, since all of your cloth/leather covered Rigid Materials can be made of barrel plastic.


15th century, one of several. Not quite a soldier yet, or simply not with the funds to soldier strong and soldier on, this kit lets you go light as they come, wear cool helmets and still be "Historically correct." Basically, what you want as a basis is a cool helmet from the 15th century (Sallet, Kettle, Barbute, Close, Armet, pretty much anything but the very tournament/knight specific Great Bascinet.), now you have some options:

1. Go the route of the low-on-cash. This means your next pieces should be minimum requirements and a gambeson. On top of this, you can either wear a second, thinner and longer gambeson, you could wear jack chains, you could wear pauldrons and a placcart etc. etc.

2. Slightly more cash. Bring on the brigandines.

3. Crouching wallet hidden cashflow. This is where it gets interesting. There are examples of artwork of soldiers fighting in massive clothing, huge, flowy arms, puffy stuff, and out of the arms, and out of the "skirt" stick completely articulated armour. Now, it goes to reason that they, of course, have plate underneath their massive Coats of Arms/Waffenrocks/Whatever they are actually called, but nobody actually sees the armour. That means that you can wear a cool helmet, cool arms and cool legs, and wear a zoombang with hockeypads ducktaped to it on your torso, and nobody would know.


Viking or earlier. The reason you don't go later than viking is that by then, everybody has a chainmail, a viking does not need one. As a viking, you can get a starterbucket, you can even get a cool starterbucket with occulars and a metal-mask that looks like a face, or even a metal mask that looks like an AWESOME face with beard and everything, people make those, they're expensive, but they exist. The rest of the kit you ask? Hide it, hide it all underneath puffy clothing, or have some parts of your puffy clothing actually be padded (but not quilted). A Viking-era warrior can wear a badass helm and a bitchin' lamellar and never have to touch chain.



Lastly, and rather unorthodox.

You want metal limbs and lamellary/scaley chest?

Try Samurai.

[lgliebe726]

If you're going to play around with covering up your armor, and you haven't 100% settled on a persona/style yet, I'd recommend not making your cover up stuff out of linen right off the bat. Grab up some 100% cotton broadcloth or something similar in a natural looking color. It's what I use for all my functional/cheap SCA fabric: tablecloths, bags, something to cover the cooler, t-tunic for a beginner, etc. A plain tabard to cover up a non-ideal kidney belt for example [I've heard of people using lacrosse kidney protection from play it again sports, goodwill, etc. while looking for something better] is just a rectangle with a hole in it. Broad cloth should run you around $2.50 a yard compared with linen which, well... is linen. Sometimes you also find cool things digging around in the "remnants" bins at stores like JoAnn fabrics- linen blends in beautiful colors, wool, and other things I'd never buy at normal price. Another option is to join the mailing list for a fabric store like that- my local store sends out coupons for 40% off one item once a week, and by the yard fabric purchases count. So I just made one fabric purchase per week until I finally got all my linen If you don't have a sewing machine you can get creative: maybe there's a snowed in old woman who'd be willing to trade quickly running a broadcloth tunic through her sewing machine in exchange for having her sidewalk cleared. You never know.

[Pathfinder]

Just curious ,where in southern Mn are you? What sca group?

[Emeryk]

I am curious too, as me and pathfinder work together and have been known to make things.

[Caius705]

Another option is to join the mailing list for a fabric store like that- my local store sends out coupons for 40% off one item once a week, and by the yard fabric purchases count. So I just made one fabric purchase per week until I finally got all my linen

Easier than this now, just download the app. Consistently 40 or 50% off, sometimes both at the same time. And you can go back the next day and use it again.

[Emeryk]

Just an FYI all of the armor related projects that I have finished have been given to new fighters, no money required (on occasion I have been forced to accept a small amount of cash for materials). Me and Pathfinder have been talking about "sponsoring" new fighters with knowledge and armor, may not be completely free as you might have to put in some work.

Feel free to PM me with questions.

[Belemrys]

Just an FYI all of the armor related projects that I have finished have been given to new fighters, no money required (on occasion I have been forced to accept a small amount of cash for materials). Me and Pathfinder have been talking about "sponsoring" new fighters with knowledge and armor, may not be completely free as you might have to put in some work.

Feel free to PM me with questions.

Take this man up on his offer! Nothing like making your own armor to start and understanding how it works...you can buy the pretty stuff later when you know exactly what you want

[Keegan Ingrassia]

In addition, I find that after you've had a hand in making the armor you're wearing, you have a much higher level of trust and understanding of exactly how much it can protect you. It also makes the prices for buying armor look like a steal.

[Belemrys]

In addition, I find that after you've had a hand in making the armor you're wearing, you have a much higher level of trust and understanding of exactly how much it can protect you. It also makes the prices for buying armor look like a steal.

Ain't that the truth...amount of hours pounding at the steel...

[Uilliam Le Syngur Ingelrie]

Well, if you want a sports kit, I'd skip on the scale. Aluminum lamellar, with hidden arms (or bazubands) and legs (all aluminum) is a pretty good compromise between sport and looks, in my opinion. Won't weigh much, will look good and be pretty protective.

_________________
"He is a bastard. He is unfettered by having no father, and it enables him to call dibs faster."

-Cian

"This quote was enough reason on its own to join AA. Period. Internet Win Award"

-Scott Landua

This was the best advice for your situation. So quietly understated I thought perhaps you might have missed it.
What Caius705 Said,
looks good, adaptable to lots of early period personas, across broad geographical distances and is fairly inexpensive. More so if you do lots of it yourself.

[Rodney]

Just curious ,where in southern Mn are you? What sca group?

As Pathfinder and witus emeryk asked, what group are in playing with in MN? Talk to the locals and find out what’s worked, and not worked, for members in your area.

Take your time before blowing a ton of cash. Attend some events and check out what other folks are sporting. Come on up to THACO in the Twin Cities this spring or head down to Lilies War this summer.

[Belemrys]

Listen to Rodney! He is a good man and I know I plan to pick his brains on SCA stuff soon