Some questions about the sugarloaf.

[Amanda M]

Hey guys. I am in need of a deeper level of knowledge regarding helmet styles in the mid 14th century. I am putting together an ACL kit and I was planning on going with a Sugarloaf helm for cost and also stylistic reasons, but I am concerned with being able to document it. I am doing splinted limb defenses for cost reasons as well and the effigies I have been looking at are mid 14th century, mostly German.

So, I guess my questions are as follows. How can you tell in an effigy whether the helm sometimes shown with a torse and crest and all that is a great helm vs maybe a sugarloaf? Is that a far fetched idea? How would I go about documenting the use of the sugarloaf in this kit? How frequently was this kind of helm used anyway?

Any help in this area is really appreciated. I don't want to spend money on something I can use so I gotta have my ducks in a row before I order. If it is too out of left field for the idea of this helmet with this kind of kit that is an answer too.

[Ernst]

You're not going to find any torse on a flat-top "great helm" or sugarloaf in the 14th century. There are plenty of crests and mantles in German sources. 1350 is about the latest we see the sugarloaf around, though great helms with raised top caps like the Pembridge or Royal Armouries example last until about 1370.

Perhaps if you have a specific effigy or miniature you're looking to copy, we can provide more feedback on which type of helmet seems more likely?

[Amanda M]

I guess I might be asking too much. I'm basically trying to pidgeonhole my existing ACL worthy parts from my 14th century SCA kit into something I can document without using too many sources. The bascinet would be easy because all the effigies I am looking at have one. I am looking at a couple of German effigies from mid 14th because they have splinted limb defenses. They all have a bascinet helm though. I might just have to scrap the whole sugarloaf idea and save more money for a bascinet.

[Gustovic]

I personally prefer to extend the working like of great helms to the beginning of the XVth century, following the example of this miniature, which quite clearly shows a classic sugarloaf helm.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4294/9677/

[Urban]

Is there a specific date range you're shooting for? And does it have to be german specifically?

[Urban]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipila ... 508791796/

Strasbourg cathedral in Germany, circa 1340-1345. This guy is wearing a sugarloaf and cop, and if you look at other figures in the same location some are wearing what look like splinted arms, and what looks to be a visored sugarloaf.

[Amanda M]

Thanks. That gives me a lot to go in actually.

[Urban]

I'm going to be a similar kit, basing it off of this and the Otto V Ormalunde effigy. Are you planning on a visored or a fixed sugarloaf?

[Amanda M]

Fixed.

[white mountain armoury]

Strasbourg cathedral is really close to France as well and a great resource for early/mid 14th cent.
I wrote the Cathedral and for short money bought a CD full of great images in very hi-res. Very worth it, the other images are great, kettle hats, splinted limbs, bascinets, cotes etc.

[Amanda M]

I've been trying to find more images of the cathedral carvings to draw from but it's pretty tough to find what I am looking for so far. I have at least a month before my helm funds are available. Plenty of time to finish researching.

[RandallMoffett]

WMA,

Do you have the contact you used there?

RPM

[Ernst]

Strasbourg cathedral is really close to France as well and a great resource for early/mid 14th cent.
I wrote the Cathedral and for short money bought a CD full of great images in very hi-res. Very worth it, the other images are great, kettle hats, splinted limbs, bascinets, cotes etc.

Strasbourg is in France, though it's Alsatian and would have been "German" in the 14th and early 15th centuries.

[Hrolfr]

WMA,

Do you have the contact you used there?

RPM

Yes, please!