Another 16th century couter. Update!

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:44 am

It seems like a bunch of us are making different styles of 16th century couters so I figure its a good time to get some opinions on what I am working on. I am trying to make a later smooth Maximillian harness with a little bit of ornamentation to it but not overboard. Since this is a huge job I started with some general sketches of the over all kit and decided to get going on the elbows. Here are some pics of what I have so far

https://www.flickr.com/photos/40421015@N02/14378814988/

For practical reasons I am making this out of 410 stainless ( I have a bunch of it on hand that I am working through) and although I am getting closer the shape I want Im not sure I can get the roll around the edges of the wing without cracking it. I have had successes with wider rolls but most of the tiny rolls seem to crack. I am more concerned with getting the overall shape right , so my question is would it be acceptable to skip the roll on the edge and just add in a recess?

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:52 pm

Post a picture or sketch of what you are trying to build and we will have a better idea of what details are and are not necessary.

I own one max elbow with no rolls:
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-58.html

and several other early 16th c. elbows without rolls which have other details:
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-57.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-63.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-148.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-185.html

None appear to really be the shape you are going for. I think that would typically be on a pretty big, full, and "all the features" type elbow that would be rolled.

Do you think you could get a bump to work? A fold without actually bothering to close it?

Wade

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:47 pm

Here is a pc I just pulled of the web, I will post some sketches when I get home tonight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian ... a_1514.JPG

I was sort of thinking I could get away with bumping it out that way I could get the roping and still maintain the look I want

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:09 pm

Here is the suit I am working off of for the couter, I am taking what I like from each of these three suits and making an "inspired by" composite rather then a specific suit. https://www.flickr.com/photos/8307963@N ... orL-47yi62

I can not seem to find my sketch book... more to come

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:31 pm

Ha! I found a heart shaped couter in medieval armour from rhodes pg 116 with a recessed edge and no roll It is a bit different in shape but with the other info I have I think I can skip the roll

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:53 pm

Yea, that is another very, very early century elbow. They say 1500-1510, and it certainly isn't likely to be later than that. I have early elbows like that. You have to be a little careful about the rest of the shape to keep it in that range. The other one you posted is later.

Wade

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:59 pm

I think the shape I am going for is similar to the 3/4 armour from the Met ,I am looking to stay somewhere around 1520-30 so I guess its not quite heart shaped

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:57 pm

1520-30 does seem to have rolls on most of the decent stuff. There were getting in the mood for such things by then. But a bump looks like a roll, and 410 likely won't need the strength, and they did do bumps on various pieces when they felt like it.

Wade

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:42 am

looks like thats my answer. I will post some more pics when I get them done

Johann ColdIron · Post by **Johann ColdIron** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:45 am

Llewelyn Gododdin wrote:looks like thats my answer. I will post some more pics when I get them done

Bumps? Where's the fun in that!

Though Wade certainly has several examples that do just that.

The only other suggestion I could make is that I think the center of the dish to accomodate the point of the persons elbow is a little out of position in relationship with the plane of the fan.

Think of the elbow point as the bottom of a J and the fan as the long leg of it. In this pic https://www.flickr.com/photos/40421015@N02/14378754020/ the elbow center point appears to start earlier on the curve than the bottom of the "J". In this arrangement the fan will point out from the body instead of point forward (if the arm is at the persons side). All most all the elbows I looked at seemed to have the fan point forward in the same plane as the flat of the side of the bicep. I assume to keep blades from getting between the cop and rerebrace.

I had the same problem with mine and had to move the centerpoint to make it flow more like the ways the originals do. There is also a natural inclination to over flare the inside of the fan where it is easiest to hit and that too can cause problems. A lot of modern reproductions fans curl out from the body and have the wrong look which is one of the reasons it is so important to look at originals for inspiration.

Look forward to seeing the final product!

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:26 pm

Johann, looking at it I think you are correct about the position of the dish. I have to raise the center a bit more so I think I can move it slightly. As far as the bump goes, I may just roll it. I left myself the extra material and I made a version of the tool you used on your set so I think I can do it. I really liked the way your set came out and the small details really show through.

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:24 am

Well, after some more work here is where I am at. These are a munitions set for sure, the spacing of the roping is uneven. That being said I have seen 16th century armour with some uneven roping so Im not really that concerned with it. I adjusted the dish of the elbow to more accurately align with the fan and added a step and the "bump to the edge. I think that was a good compromise and I am getting the look I want (more or less). For the finish I think I might leave them rough from the hammer and blackened with accented edges but Im not entirely sure yet. The second one is almost done as well then I will harden and temper them and move on to the gauntlets next. pics here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/40421015@N02/14633909954/

Johann ColdIron · Post by **Johann ColdIron** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:00 pm

Llewelyn Gododdin wrote:Well, after some more work here is where I am at. These are a munitions set for sure, the spacing of the roping is uneven. That being said I have seen 16th century armour with some uneven roping so Im not really that concerned with it. I adjusted the dish of the elbow to more accurately align with the fan and added a step and the "bump to the edge. I think that was a good compromise and I am getting the look I want (more or less). For the finish I think I might leave them rough from the hammer and blackened with accented edges but Im not entirely sure yet. The second one is almost done as well then I will harden and temper them and move on to the gauntlets next. pics here
https://www.flickr.com/photos/40421015@N02/14633909954/

The center cup of the couter looks much better!

Don't worry about the spacing of the roping. A file can help disguise any that are too off. They didn't worry about that much. The angle of the ropes could be much more acute, from the examples I have seen, though it really depends on the one you are working from. The step will help make the couter more resistant to deformation. Its a nice detail.

Rough from the hammer, to me, is harder than a sanded finish. Every hammer mark is left where it falls.

You are much better than I at trying something and moving on to the next project . I keep beating my head against the same thing until I can't stand it.

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:16 pm

Thanks! I think it is all that art school training I tend to just make something and if it isnt right then I toss it and make ten more.

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:32 pm

The second couter is shaped and they are ready to temper, the only question now is how to handle the finish. I am a terrible flip flopper when it comes to my gear. Part of me wants to give them a simple satin finish and be done with it but there is another part of me that really wants to leave in the hammer marks and blacken them. since I do not want to deal with burning linseed oil and the temp required for linseed oil blackening is higher then Craig Nadler's recommended temper for 410 that is out. Which leaves painting, there are a few examples of painted armour from the early 16th century including close helms and "ugly" sallets so I think I could do it without to much issue. Again my armour will be early 16th century within about 35 years so we are definately talking about an "ish" approach and not any sort of dead-nuts documentable armour. I found Jiri Klepac's blackened maximillian field harness to be a big inspiration. Any ideas from the crowd?

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:25 am

I say blacken.
I have been flip flopping on blackening/blueing my armor lately too.

Johann ColdIron · Post by **Johann ColdIron** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:51 am

MJBlazek wrote:I say blacken.
I have been flip flopping on blackening/blueing my armor lately too.

Seconded! Though I may be a little biased. All my stuff is blued. It is reasonably easy to care for and hides a multitude of sins...

There are blackening agents for stainless.

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:53 pm

Well I took them from the kiln and scraped the scale off and this is what I got. a nice grey black iron oxide https://www.flickr.com/photos/40421015@N02/14516229190/

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:39 pm

nice!

Johann ColdIron · Post by **Johann ColdIron** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:53 am

Looks like that will work!

Have you hit them with anything yet

Llewelyn Gododdin · Post by **Llewelyn Gododdin** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:22 pm

Yep they are tank, Im glad I left them rough. now to finish the rest of the kit. or make these again hmmmm

Another 16th century couter. Update!

Another 16th century couter. Update!

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