length of hauberk sleeves 14th century harness?

[Henrik Granlid]

Should a mid 14th century harness have a hauberk with full or half length sleeves?

I figure that the padding on my forearms as well as future upgrades to Elbowcops and forearm plating (complete brainfart on the name) will be decided by Wether or not there will be a layer of chainmail on the forearm or not.

Now I know that the Italian 15th century fashion was short sleeves hanging over your spaulders, but that's another century entirely.

[Ernst]

Talbot's bar graph:


Mail alone is fairly common in the 1340s, but is rapidly being displaced. We also have evidence of separate mail sleeves being in use this early on, in both long and short variants. I'd say you're safe going with either option.

[Henrik Granlid]

Is this a graph over limb defenses then? I've seen the full list of the graphs but without a title it's hard to know which one it is.

[Ernst]

Sorry, yes. That's "Full Arm Harnesses" from all countries.
http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armou ... figies.htm

Full Arm Harnesses

Full Articulated means a comprehensive arm harness including vambrace, elbow, rerebrace and typically an integrated shoulder defense all joined together with articulated lames.

Full Floating means at least an elbow cop often with other elements such as a vambrace or rerebrace independently fastened to the mail sleeves.

Partial Arms means arms defended with mail that has been supplemented with at least a floating or integrated elbow but does not include both a vambrace and a rerebrace.

Mail means arms defended entirely with mail.

[Konstantin the Red]

Vambrace -- avant-bras -- forearm
Rerebrace -- arrière-bras -- upper arm (lit., "rear-arm")
Coudiere -- couter

[Amanda M]

Check out effigiesandbrasses.com

Do a search for the time period and place you are interested in. Mid 14th century Italy for example is very different than England of the same time period. A longer sleeve is not uncommon in some areas but it really depends a lot on region and which quarter of the century you're shooting for. You look at Belgian effigies from mid 14th century and they all have a mail sleeve that goes at least to the elbow where in England they are sporting a full arm harness at the same time.

[Ian L]

On the majority of late 14th century English effigies that allow you to see the inside elbow gap, the maille covers the gap entirely and goes in to the lower vambrace. So the maille shirt's sleeves are at least long enough to reach in to the vambrace far enough to stay secured, so about mid-forearm at a minimum, but like others have said the exact time and geographic location matter.

e.g.:

[Konstantin the Red]

The mail sleeves may be attached to cloth of some layout or other -- either to his aketon directly, or to supplemental sleeve ends over the aketon sleeves.

[Henrik Granlid]

However, notice the chain edge protruding from underneath his arming cote. This could of course be a separate skirt as well but far as I've come to understand, voiders and separate skirts are part of the 15th century innovations and that during the 14th, full shirts were worn beneath plate or splint. We have depictions of kings undressing and knights out of armour, all of which include full shirts rather than voiders.

Huge thanks to every reply so far, in particular to Ian who's kit is one of my inspirations for ending up with the mafia.
Keep them coming people.

[RandallMoffett]

Henrik,

Most people did think that but Thom Richardson's PhD Thesis more or less shows both in use. Thom takes that to mean that it supplanted the use of the hauberk more or less but I am thinking it was more likely to have multiple options for an individual. I am still not sure that the bits of mail were not used by the less well off persons to be honest but all we have it textual evidence and artistic and art is hard to show this or not.

RPM

[Henrik Granlid]

That's incredibly cool if I do say so myself. So looking at a harness heavy on plate, I'd also be looking at voiders and a sirt, whereas a kit with plate legs and a coat of plate would be more tuned toward the hauberk then? (in very broad terms that is)

[Ian L]

That's incredibly cool if I do say so myself. So looking at a harness heavy on plate, I'd also be looking at voiders and a sirt, whereas a kit with plate legs and a coat of plate would be more tuned toward the hauberk then? (in very broad terms that is)

From a practical standpoint it would mostly depend on what type of torso protection you are wearing. Solid breastplates may only cover the front of your body if there's no accompanying backplate, so a full shirt of maille would be nice for back protection. This is why I'm stuck wearing a haubergeon and can't switch to sleeves and a skirt! I wish I could, but not until I've got plate on my back.

[RandallMoffett]

Ian,

I have heard that as well but I am not so sure. Art almost always shows kings and such wearing fairly complete plate with the hauberk or haubergeon still. As well all the way into the mid 15th people like Monstrelet indicate this similar trend. Honestly I am resting on preference at this point as I think I'd like more text to back something else.

RPM

[Ernst]

Randall,

Doesn't the Modus armandi text from the 1330s call for plates in war and a haubergeon in tournament? At any rate, I believe you're correct on allowing options for the individual, as Richardson notes a couple of cases where sleeves and paunces are issued to notable individuals: Richard Fitzalan, future Earl of Arundel being issued a set on 9 May 1338, and Sir John Molyns, the King's Steward, being issued both 2 haubergeons and a set of paunces and sleeves of steel mail. Of course these men might have used this to equip retainers, but it seems likely they were meant to provide options to the individual.

Richardson seems to argue the lower classes used mail haubergeons, while the upper classes used sleeves and paunces with plates.

Despite the use of mail sleeves, paunce and collars, complete mail shirts or
habergeons (lorice) continued to be made, and seem largely to have been issued to
lower-grade troops such as the crews of ships, but also to men-at-arms. Mail corsets
appear in Fleet’s account, and nowhere else. It is likely that they were sleeveless mail
shirts, and some of them are described as going with mail sleeves and paunces.

[RandallMoffett]

Ernst,

I'd have to look it over again but there for sure is more specialized gear for the tournament by the 1300s so for sure could be.

He does indeed offer that theory but there is so little evidence I am not convinced. I talked to him about it and I still feel there is more info needed to make such a statement, especially when so many nobles and knights clearly have pairs of plates and hauberks/habergeons in their inventories. In fact the number of men of status listed with these mail bits seem much lower than men with hauberks and haubergeons from the sources I am familiar with. Seems odd that the source he is looking at is different so dramatically different which makes me think these loans or gifts were as you say supplemental to their own gear.

I am always very wary when assuming something in a list like these from a very specific source are all the equipment the men had as more often than not they do not get weapons and one would assume they had those before marching off to war.

But there is plenty of evidence with Thom's work to show it highly likely some knights were indeed ditching the full mail shirt for bits of mail. To me with the evidence now present I think preference or wealth is the more likely reason for why they had it.

He does state men-at-arms as being listed as recipient of hauberks and haubergeons as well so not what every person would consider lower-grade.

RPM

[James B.]

Manuscripts are filled with images of men either armoring up or stripping off full plate with a full shirt of maille under it up through at least the 1420s (my current era of research)

[RandallMoffett]

James,

For sure and many of these are clearly nobles and knights.

[James B.]

Kings and their retainers also.

Artaxerxes killing Artaban. BGE Ms. fr. 190/1 Des cas des nobles hommes et femmes. 1410

[RandallMoffett]

Yikes.... your contract has just been terminated!

RPM

[Mac]

Kings and their retainers also.

Artaxerxes killing Artaban. BGE Ms. fr. 190/1 Des cas des nobles hommes et femmes. 1410

Contest may be very important here. If the story being illustrated calls for the guy to remove his mail shirt, then the artist must show a mail shirt, even if it's anachronistic.

Mac

[James B.]

I believe it calls for them to remove the armor; the illustrations often contain contemporary armor to the era illustrated.