Origin of "cop"?

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:27 pm

I've never been able to get a source for the word "cop" in reference to armor. Is this strictly an SCA thing?

There have been numerous occasions where I referred to poleyns or couters, only to get either a blank stare or a "WHAT?"

There must be a historical precedent if armorers are perpetuating it, but I can't find it.

HELMUT

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:31 pm

CoP = Coat of Plates, as in armor dug up at the Wisby gravesite. It is metal plates riveted or stitched into the inside of leather or canvas. Usually larger plates. Something done like that with many smaller plates would be described as a Brigandine.

Kevin the Hound

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Pars Acuta in Alio (The Pointy End Goes into the Other Man)

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:34 pm

Why should there be a historical precedent for anything SCA??

But on this one --
Poleyns and Coulters is technical (French or something).

I think it's basic English to say "knee cup" or "elbow cup"
(just like the "athletic cup")
...
and then SCAdianly medievalised as "cop"

I think the CoP as Coat of Plates is a purely Armour Archive creation (or maybe online armouring community) -- it makes sence as a written item but just confuses things in person.
I think it somewhat confuses things in the written form as well (but maybe that's just me).

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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 03-23-2001).]

Clay · Post by **Clay** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:34 pm

Not quite Kevin. He wanted to know the meaning of "cop" when used to describe poleyns and couters (elbows and knees).

I've not seen evidence of it either, but I'm no historian. My guess is that it is a phrase the SCA coined.

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:39 pm

I'm inclined to believe the "elbow cup" theory, but then why not "shoulder cup"? For that matter, I haven't seen the word "spaulder" in any of my reading either.

HELMUT

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:44 pm

Maybe the shoulder defense was not "cuppish" enough?
Maybe spulder is easier to remember?

I've seen both spaulder and pauldron in my readings (no I can't give you a sitation off the top of my head).

The terms are vague but basically spaulder tends to refer to the small shoulder cup with maybe a few lames, pauldron to the bigger, more complex and interesting types.

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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 03-23-2001).]

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 3:18 pm

hi all,
"cop" is a word that means so many things.
In reference to armour, I believe "cop" comes from the cop-bone, or knee-cap. It's application to the elbow, a small step. This would be definition 8a. in Oxford English Dictionary.
There is a great deal of evidence for coppe, as cup, as in attorcoppe, or "poison-cup;" a spider. It is probably somewhere along these lines, cap and cup, that the obvious association with those items of armour orginates.

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IdÃ«val
The Huntsman of
I-NossÃ« LÃºmÃ«vanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 3:23 pm

Just thought of something.
For most of the term differences, such as spaulder, espauldier, pauldron, it requires a reconciliation of language.

I would suggest that everyone choose a language in which to refer to all armour items - homogenize. In other words, if you like poleyn (Fr?), you'll probably use gorget. If you like english, find all english terms. This will cut down on redundance and argument.

IdÃ«val

Meridian · Post by **Meridian** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 3:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Norman:
The terms are vague but basically spaulder tends to refer to the small shoulder cup with maybe a few lames, pauldron to the bigger, more complex and interesting types.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, from what I've seen the pauldron is the actual cup on the shoulder, while spaulders are the completed article (eg: pauldron + lames) but that may just be modern interpretation as well.

Thats the problem with trying to standardize a modern name for something that at the time they were used had names in every culture that used them. Do you name something by its English name or the German/French/Spanish/Italian/turkish/Indian/asian name for the same thing (and then you have the slang and sub-group lingo).
Is'nt modern english wonderful?

-----edit-------
And Ideval beat me to it by 8 minutes!
-----edit-------

[This message has been edited by Meridian (edited 03-23-2001).]

Garridan · Post by **Garridan** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by schreiber:
I'm inclined to believe the "elbow cup" theory, but then why not "shoulder cup"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of the larger fighters' elbow cops can fit my knees, and vise verse. I wouldn't ever wear spaulders on my elbows or knees.

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:42 pm

I can wear just about any commercially made elbow cop on my knee...

But my question was this: is there a period reference to the word "cop" to mean poleyn or couter, and if not, why are we all using it?

HELMUT

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:52 pm

Are there one-word english terms for a lot of armor components? What replaces "gorget" except "armored collar"? "Choker" is a piece of ornamentation, makes me think of women with nice necks, not keeping my windpipe from being crushed. "Tassets" has no alternative but "hip flaps". Damn frenchies

!

- Kyle

kwarmour · Post by **kwarmour** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 5:11 pm

cop (kopp)
n.

1. A cone-shaped or cylindrical roll of yarn or thread wound on a spindle.
2. Chiefly British. A summit or crest, as in a hill.

[Middle English summit, from Old English.]

I guess they call it cop because it looks like a round hill. It also seems to be British. Also gorget comes from gorge (french), which means throat.

Kelsey

[This message has been edited by kwarmour (edited 03-23-2001).]

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 7:04 pm

Okay, so I'm a dufus! Blame it on me being in a hurry to finish my internet stuff and run off to a Rapier Demo. Sorry, no confusion intended (just experienced).

Kevin (the abashed) Hound

CBA · Post by **CBA** » Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Meridian:
 I agree, from what I've seen the pauldron is the actual cup on the shoulder, while spaulders are the completed article (eg: pauldron + lames) but that may just be modern interpretation as well.

Thats the problem with trying to standardize a modern name for something that at the time they were used had names in every culture that used them. Do you name something by its English name or the German/French/Spanish/Italian/turkish/Indian/asian name for the same thing (and then you have the slang and sub-group lingo).
Is'nt modern english wonderful?

-----edit-------
And Ideval beat me to it by 8 minutes!
-----edit-------

[This message has been edited by Meridian (edited 03-23-2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely, Let's Look at something Modern.

Cigarrettes, ( being it up cause I just lit one)

Slang terminology. Here in america the are called
" Smokes, Butts, Cowboy Killers, Coffin Nails...
In England, their Fags

In Other COuntries, different things.

Now suppose in a thousand years Tobacco has been banned for 900 of them and a group of 20'th Century Reanactors are having this type of discussion.

" It's a known fact that many people from England used to Burn Fags"

" What a bunch of Barbarians"

"In America, the smoked Cowboy Killers"

" Why did other people kill cowboys and why did they 'smoke' them?"

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Sat Mar 24, 2001 1:46 pm

Call me traditional, but "cop" works just fine to convey the idea of an armour item that cups the elbow and knee. I am also comfortable expressing the elbow or knee plate as the final "cap" to the point of my elbow or knee.

I once had access to an armour book with a front and back view of a knight(possibly burgundian?). Anyhow, each armour item was identified side by side in its English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, and [possibly one more] equivalent. This was incredibly helpful, until I didn't copy the page. Anyone know the book?

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IdÃ«val
The Huntsman of
I-NossÃ« LÃºmÃ«vanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar

Sinric · Post by **Sinric** » Sat Mar 24, 2001 7:38 pm

Norman:

The SCA is clearly not the source for the terms "elbow cop" and "knee cop". Both terms were used in the book "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor" by George Cameron Stone first published in 1934. I seem to remember (but can't find the reference at the moment) that Claude Blair in his book "European Armour" talked about the terms being first used in the early 20th century by armour collectors and dealers.

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Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 12:25 am

Ideval -- the book you're referring to is almost certainly The Armourer and His Craft by Charles Ffoulkes. On page 110 of my edition is a nice illustration of the front and back of figure in 16th century plate, with numbers next to the various components; below is a list of the components and their names in English, French, German, Italian and Spanish. The terms "elbow-cop" and "knee-cop" are included in the Engish list.

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 1:16 am

Thank you, that's it. I've been out of high school four years, so I guess I didn't remember it too far off.

Does anyone have that page scanned so it could be posted?

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IdÃ«val
The Huntsman of
I-NossÃ« LÃºmÃ«vanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:44 am

Well,
My most extreme Mea Culpas for not going back to Stone and Ffolkes before ranting on the Board.

I 'spose I deserve a spanking.
(I'll mention it to my wife)

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:50 am

Margret Thatcher naked on a cold day... Margret Thatcher naked on a cold day....

I really didnt need to have that visual Norman...

Janos

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:56 am

toweyb · Post by **toweyb** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 9:20 am

About spaulders, pauldrons, epaulettes, etc.:

The "-on" suffix in Spanish usually means "bigger and badder." Some Middle French scholar will have to tell us whether that was true in French as well.

For example, a caldera is a pot, but a caldron is a great big pot.

So, when I see later-period armour with great big spaulders, I'm not surprised to hear them called pauldrons.

And little bitty ones would be epaulettes.

The initial "es-", of course, shifts like crazy, depending on whether you are spelling like the French, English, or Spanish. Spaniards hate hard "S" sounds, while in French they become vestigial (nothing left but an accent mark) and ultimately vanish.