propane forge or OA torch hot work

[rotccapt]

hi all so now that i have started playing with hot work i am at a cross roads and i want your opinions. so i have an OA torch and i used it for raising an elbow and it worked out preaty good but now i need to get more gas and i was considering putting together a propane burner and making a forge similar to what is seen in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgzQiO9liNw a good view of it is at about 11:30

so my plans for armoring are, gauntlets, elbows, knees and a helmet in the future. i like the fire brick thing because i can re configure it to do other things. i plan on making it on a larger scale with a riel style burner.

so to all the hot workers out there which would you do, stick with the OA or build a forge

[bhaiduk]

Forge, then let your friends come over and borrow it. Lol!

[rotccapt]

bhaiduk you are more than welcome to come over any time.

i am leaning towards the forge because i can do more with it and when i run out of gas i can get it any were

[Kristoffer]

I would say both.

The OA torch is awesome to use for spot heating wich is almost nessecary when doing more complex things and shapes. A propane forge is good for heating larger areas and is a good work horse for "big" forming.

[Thomas Powers]

You seem to have skipped over the oxy propane torch option; often used by folks who need to do a lot of heating but don't want the cost of acetylene. You will need to get tips and possibly a body rated for propane and T rated hoses and regulators---and a gas saver!

[Gaston de Clermont]

I have a forge and an oxy-acetylene rig. I use the torch with a rosebud tip for hot work. I use the forge for heat treating. If you guys are interested in a road trip to Austin I'm happy to show you some tricks.

[Armadillo]

Safety Note: Please keep in mind that a rosebud tip needs to be sized to your tank and supply system.

I would not hesitate to build a forge. If you are a good scrounger it can be built for less than a rosebud tip would cost new. With the right design you can hang your piece below (or above) the burner and free your hands if only to stretch a moment or study a drawing.

[Gaston de Clermont]

I haven't played with a rig like Armadillo posted, though I suspect it would be pretty spiffy for thicker stock like helmets. A lot of the work I've been doing is on things like greaves and vambraces. The metal is thinner, so it cools faster, making a more focused heat more effective. Not that you couldn't work on thin pieces with the above setup, you'd just be heating more steel than you could work before it cools.

[Halberds]

I have had good luck hot dishing helm halves with the fire brick stack and the weed burner.
I also use it to melt tin/lead alloy when casting my newbie dishes and rivet anvils.

I like to rotate the helm halves one in the heat while pounding on the other.
I do have an oxy/acetylene rosebud but I can not afford the gas to run it very long.

[rotccapt]

so i think a forge is in my future. so can i use the fire brick from the big box stores or should i get some from anvilfire?

[Amanda M]

The big box store firebrick isn't great and will crack over time, and can be patched with refractory cement. You could also use kaowool or make your own refractory cement. You can google propane forge plans for tons and tons of designs.

[critch]

Let me know where you get your insulated firebrick from.. I'm looking to do the same thing.. it's funny because I posted this video on another forum a while back! lol .

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Well, here's a link to kaowool.
https://secure.anvilfire.com/page.php?t ... ol_RT.xml/

And refractory bricks.
https://secure.anvilfire.com/page.php?t ... ricks.xml/

Oh, and here's a thread on building a micro-kiln. Great for spot-heating for hot work.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128351

[rotccapt]

Let me know where you get your insulated firebrick from.. I'm looking to do the same thing.. it's funny because I posted this video on another forum a while back! lol .

that is were i got the idea for the forge

i think i might just make one using refractory cement because i think i can get the materials to make it for less than the bricks but we will see

[critch]

You should make a video or take pictures of yours once you do it !

[rotccapt]

ill see what i can do. i realy like the mini kiln than Keegan Ingrassia posted. for the metal housing im thinking a bread loaf pan should fit the bill nicely as for the refractory i think i will try out the stuff that this guy made in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRTcmR6sSk

[losthelm]

If you look on craigslist, free cycle, or ebay you may find a kiln fairly cheap they can be a bear to ship so they usualy sell resonabley. bring a friend to load.

If somone is liquidating an estate or moving they can sometimes be found less then $50.

If its no functional it can be an easy fix or a great source of materials as long as that model does not contain asbestos.
Usualy kilns fail at the relay and that can be replaced for $30 or so.
other things that go wrong include elements, control board, probe or the thermocoupler.
a bit more expencive in parts but still fairly inexpenicve. thermocoupler and controlers start around 150 depending on model, probe is usualy around $30-50.

[Theo]

I've actually built the mini forge setup from that video and I wasn't that impressed. For a heat source I was using the Home Depot MAPP gas torch with the flexible hose. I forget the model number but it wasn't putting out enough heat to do anything really significant. I had a fairly wide entry hole for the torch head (about 3/4") and maybe that had something to do with it? I can post pictures later.

I'm not saying that it won't work, just that I was underwhelmed with it, and that may be due to some minor construction issues.

[critch]

I'll likely just place the bricks into a "pizza oven" shape and use the propane torch (maybe two) one on each side.. This way I can fit a helmet, etc in there no problem

[Thomas Powers]

A plumber's propane torch will not be enough to armour with. I've used single firebrick forges powered with them and they were good for 1/4" sq stock and small bits of 3/8" stock.

A weed burner will heat up lots more especially with a good insulative surround. But tends to be very oxidizing. A tunable propane forge burner is well worth the effort/cost.

Trying to heat up a helm in a pizza oven with propane torches would probably take 20 of them.

[Scott Martin]

Hi Thomas

A plumbers torch can get work hot enough to armour with, Peter Fuller uses one as his primary heat source and he has done some stunning work. It isn't as fast a heat as a forge or O/A torch, but it will suffice. I have used the lumbers torch to work on a belows visor, and while it is not as "tight" a source as an O/A torch, it did the job.

Have you used the T-Rex line of propane burners? I'm thinking of getting one to try and minimize the oxidation problem, and it looks like they get better heat concentration (and efficiency) than the "weed burner" type torches: it would be nice if I could use an air/propane torch without firebrick to get sufficient heat.

Given that I have moved from Vancouver, I now need to aquire my own torches instead of "shared" ones (since the commute is now pricier than my own equipment)

Scott Martin

[rotccapt]

i am planning on making a ried burner for my forge setup using the mini kiln idea posted earlier i may also use a modified plumbers touch seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uuTqCsoOLE. with that i could get one of the adapter hoses for camp stoves to run it off of a standard bbq tank.

[Steve S.]

I've got a T-Rex and a pipe fitting knock-off, and they make MUCH more heat than a plumber's torch. I now use it, in conjunction with my Cowboy furnace, to do heat treating.

I have also made an impromptu furnace/forge by stacking firebrick into an appropriate shape.

Steve

[RandallMoffett]

what is a pipe fitting knock-off Steve?

[rotccapt]

there are several variants but this is the most common one it is called a ron reil burrner http://metalcast.boorman.us/reil_1.html

[Theo]

Here's pics of the mini forge: http://imgur.com/a/hYIw4

Minus the torch used to power this I had all the materials, so I'm only out a couple hours of work and a little bit of metal. Hardest part was drilling that hole through 3/16" plate. IIRC it was too big to fit in the drill press vice so I had to do it by hand.

I tried it out on some old shallow elbow cops to get more depth but all I really did was make a big gnarly dent in it. The area that heated was maybe 2" around, and it lost heat too fast to do anything meaningful with it.

Also all my dishing forms are wooden at this point, so there's that. I've hot dished on a stump at someone else's shop, but right now I'm sharing a shop space with other people and I'd like to avoid releasing huge clouds of smoke indoors.'''

Guy in the video has steel dishing forms that don't have this problem.

If the channel through the firebrick was narrower maybe this would make a passable system for spot heating metal for raising, but it's definitely not putting enough heat into the workpiece fast enough.

This is right up next to my Beverly Shear stand, which isn't a part of this.

[Steve S.]

what is a pipe fitting knock-off Steve?

rotccapt gave a good link. It's basically a giant Bunsen burner, using propane and a venturi effect to make a LARGE blowtorch. I run mine off a 20 pound tank.

Theo:
How did you cut the notch in the firebricks?

Steve

[Amanda M]

There's places online where you can buy the t-rex burner and a bunch of other styles, you just have to supply the forge and then all the connectors for the propane. I just googled that stuff when I was trying to decide whether I wanted to build a propane forge or a charcoal one and it was all pretty easy to find.

[Thomas Powers]

Blown burners are dead simple to build; but tie you to a wall plug. Aspirated burners are a bit trickier to build and tune---I lost a good chunk of beard and mustache tuning one for someone who had never worked with propane forges before and had the opening of the forge close above the regulator adjustment.

Another great burner would be Stephen Gensheimer's burners. I had one to trial it at altitude, 7000' didn't phase it a hair!, and it has been one of the most efficient and well behaved burners I have used. (and currently I have 4 gassers and have been using them for over a decade)

[rotccapt]

well work has begun on my forge burner, i am using a modified ron riel with a guru flair. i could not find a #60 drill bit so i decided to use a mig contact tip for my orifice ill post some pics soon

[Theo]

Theo:
How did you cut the notch in the firebricks?

Steve

I used 1" and 1/2" wood chisels and carefully carved it out with an 8 oz. hammer. The firebrick I used was surplus from a friend who does ceramics and I don't know the particulars but it's pretty soft stuff. I had 1/2 a brick to hold the help trap the heat in. I might try playing around with it some more.

[Theo]

I did three raising passes on my set of elbows to get additional depth to help articulation, and I'm just annealing them with a MAPP gas torch inbetween courses of hammering. The only thing I'm doing differently is setting the elbows on woven wire mesh because I figure that would be less of a heat sink (previously I had them on a steel welding table). Although it's not exactly getting up to a cherry red heat it seems to work ok, and it's been taking about 6-7 minutes per heat, not including cooling. I'm using 16 g. mild steel although it's possible that I thinned it a bit through dishing.

I think the micro forge setup makes a big difference but I'd have to time it to be sure. It still just heats a small area, and you have to move the work piece.

[rotccapt]

well i have my burner done, made up some sodium silicate to bond my perlite with. now i just need to get off my bum and build the thing. gota fix my knee armor before Wednesday though so perhaps this weekend.

while testing my burner in open air i was able to heat a piece of 16 gauge cold rolled from cold up to orange heat in about a minute once it cooled back down to black heat it was back to orange in about 30 sec or so. so i think with the mini forge set up it should work great. not as fast as OA but i think i will be happy with it

[Silvester]

I've only just started tinkering with armoring, so I'm no where near as knowledgeable as I'd like to be...

I've done a little cold dishing with a smidge of assistance from a plumbers torch...


If I do a piece in a similar fashion as the Met video (hot worked elbow cop), do I need to go back and reheat the whole piece to "normalize" it? Do I need to do any sort of annealing/tempering? Or am I gong to be (SCA) safe to dish with some heat assistance and then just planish and wear?


If the answers are far more in depth than "yes"/"no" and I need to do some reading, please direct me where to find that.

[Sevastian]

I've cold worked pieces from elbow/knee cops in 16 gauge mild steel to 14 gauge mild steel helmet halves joined by arc welding. All of these pieces are serviceable, if not 16th century "pretty". For rattan combat, I don't think normalizing is an absolute necessity if the material is mild steel given sufficient joining(riveting and/ or welding). Just my two cents given my experience.