Progress on Wisby #3 Gauntlets, pair #2.

[Steve S.]

After the successful creation and sale of pair number one, I am now creating a second pair of Wisby #3 gauntlets.

I am documenting the build here:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gall ... pair_2.htm




This was build #1:
http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gall ... ntlets.htm

Steve

[Ernst]

That's about as well documented as a step-by-step process can be. It will be interesting to hear how much time you save on the second pair, and if the improvements are worth the effort.

[Steve S.]

The improvements are mostly going to be in adjusting the number of the finger lames and a way to tack down the shell in its correct position before full sewing. I don't foresee any time savings improvements.

I'm currently at 13 hours in. I have to punch the thumb articulation holes in the right hand and then it will be heat treatment time.

I am looking into making a CNC plasma cutter. I would expect that to take 5-8 hours out of the process.

Steve

[Hrolfr]

Nice work, Steve.

[Mac]

Steve,

I would like to recommend a couple of things, if I may.

The first is to use rivets with slightly smaller heads for the metacarpal lames. I think you will get better movement that way.

The second is to make the seam at the wrist be an edge-to-edge butt seam, like medieval shoemakers used for their uppers. This type of seam will look nicer, and be more comfortable to wear. (we are, of course, looking at the "inside" of the seam here)

Mac

[Steve S.]

Hi Mac, thanks for the advice.

The first is to use rivets with slightly smaller heads for the metacarpal lames. I think you will get better movement that way.

Yes, I could see how it would provide even better movement with smaller rivet heads. However, I must say I find the gauntlets as they are to be the most comfortable of any kind I have ever tried. They fit like, heh, a glove. What do you think of the rivets I used on the cuff in pair #1 used for the hand?

However, pair #2 plates are already punched and heat treated, so they are what they are for this pair.

The second is to make the seam at the wrist be an edge-to-edge butt seam, like medieval shoemakers used for their uppers. This type of seam will look nicer, and be more comfortable to wear. (we are, of course, looking at the "inside" of the seam here)

I'm really afraid of that stitch. This leather is so thin, 4-5 oz, that I 'm afraid it would tear through. And as these pieces have a ton of labor at them when it comes to the stitching point, I'd hate to ruin them at stitching time. I've got a special hooked leather punch for making these kinds of holes, and used them on some shoes that I never got around to assembling, but even on the shoe leather I had to be careful not to tear out the hole.

Steve

[Steve S.]

Some videos of the work on these gauntlets:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... gqy5-npg3J

Steve

[Mac]

Steve,

I think that the rivets you used on the cuffs would be good on the metacarpals. If you wanted to use the bigger rivets just for the splash of silver color I would recommend using those on the cuffs.

I'm afraid of that seam too. I have used it for shoes, but I always need a drink afterwards. If I were making these gauntlets I would sew the seam first. That way it is not only easier to get in there with an awl, but if I screwed it all up, there is not so much invested. This is an extension of the general rule that states "do the diciest operation first".

If you can not see your way clear to making a butt seam, you might consider a lap seam instead. They are strong and flat, and if the stitching is nice and even they look OK. If I were going to do it that way, I might even use my old Singer, and lay in two rows of stitching, far enough apart to allow for a row of rivets in between. Those rivets would secure another row of internal plates to armor the wrist gap. I realize that the gauntlets you are copying don't have plates there, but it's an obvious idea, and the Wisby material is a small sample size. It seems like a safe extrapolation.

Mac

[Armourkris]

Those look nice Steve, and it's a good walk through you've put together to follow your build.

Out of curiosity, about how wide are the strips you used for the back of the hand and the finger scales? It's hard to say without something for scale, but I'm guessing about 3/4"?

[Ernst]

Looking at the art, and knowing the lack of cuffs on Wisby #3, I've wondered if the cuffs shouldn't be a gamboissed construction instead of splints.

[Steve S.]

I think that the rivets you used on the cuffs would be good on the metacarpals. If you wanted to use the bigger rivets just for the splash of silver color I would recommend using those on the cuffs.

On pair #3, I will try using little rivets on the hands and big rivets on the cuffs.

I'm afraid of that seam too. I have used it for shoes, but I always need a drink afterwards. If I were making these gauntlets I would sew the seam first. That way it is not only easier to get in there with an awl, but if I screwed it all up, there is not so much invested. This is an extension of the general rule that states "do the diciest operation first".

I think it might be tricky to sew the seam first. The first plate riveted in is the metacarpal, and then the horizontal lames follow in layers from there, with the wrist-most plate being laid down last. So you would need to be pretty certain where that seam was going to be before you started riveting in plates. I find it easy to start with an over-sized piece of leather, rivet in the plates, and then trim the leather to match the profile of the now-riveted plates. I got the idea for this by watching Brian Brown's reproduction process.

If you can not see your way clear to making a butt seam, you might consider a lap seam instead. They are strong and flat, and if the stitching is nice and even they look OK. If I were going to do it that way, I might even use my old Singer, and lay in two rows of stitching, far enough apart to allow for a row of rivets in between. Those rivets would secure another row of internal plates to armor the wrist gap. I realize that the gauntlets you are copying don't have plates there, but it's an obvious idea, and the Wisby material is a small sample size. It seems like a safe extrapolation.

Interesting idea, I will have to try that. The nice thing about this current method of stitching is that you can lay the cuff piece good-side to the hand piece's good size and run a row of stitches very close to the ends of the hand plates and the cuff plates, such that there is virtually no cap in coverage, and what gap there is is filled with 2 layers of leather. You would think that this ring of leather seam would be uncomfortable on the wrist but the leather is so flexible it tends to lay down pretty well and it is also under a layer of padding that I put between the shell and the glove. I do not notice the seam at all when wearing. But I like the lap seam idea.

Looking at the art, and knowing the lack of cuffs on Wisby #3, I've wondered if the cuffs shouldn't be a gamboissed construction instead of splints.

Possibly. Or just plain old leather. Or maybe no cuff at all. With my harness, the cuff overlaps my vambrace and is largely redundant.

Wisby #2 has a splinted cuff, though. I think it looks cool.

Those look nice Steve, and it's a good walk through you've put together to follow your build.

Thanks!

Out of curiosity, about how wide are the strips you used for the back of the hand and the finger scales? It's hard to say without something for scale, but I'm guessing about 3/4"?

I think that's about right.

Steve

[Steve S.]

Updated pictures of the tinning process.

Steve

[Steve S.]

Tonight I riveted in the cuff plates.

Also, Mac, I tried the flesh-side stitch to make a butt join on some scrap. This leather is a bit thicker than the last pair, so my hooked awl went in the flesh side and out the center of the edge pretty easily. Once I got in the groove I could move down the seam pretty quickly and evenly making tunnels. I'm still afraid to try it on this pair. It will be hard to get the needle in and dodge the plates on either side of the seam while keeping the gap between the plates as small as possible. Maybe next pair.

Updates here. Scroll to the bottom for the latest:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gall ... pair_2.htm




Steve

[leekellerking]

I love this place!

Steve,

I would like to recommend a couple of things, if I may.

The first is to use rivets with slightly smaller heads for the metacarpal lames. I think you will get better movement that way.

The second is to make the seam at the wrist be an edge-to-edge butt seam, like medieval shoemakers used for their uppers. This type of seam will look nicer, and be more comfortable to wear. (we are, of course, looking at the "inside" of the seam here)

Mac

[Steve S.]

I think you are right, Mac, that if you want to do this kind of seam the way to do it is to sew the hand to the cuff before beginning riveting. I'm going to have to figure out how to do that.

Steve

[Mac]

Steve,

Let me suggest a different way of thinking about the process. The way you are doing it now is by starting with the plates, and then figuring out what the foundation garment must look like by riveting them in. This seems reasonable because we already know what the plates look like; the Wisby finds tell us that, but we are left to infer the foundation. I feel confident, though, that this is not the way our ancestors worked. The shape of any brigandine-like armor depends on its foundation, and I think that to get the best results one has to start there.

Having made a couple of these gauntlets now, you are in a good position to work the other way around. You already know what the foundation must look like.

I envision a process like this....
--draft patterns of the foundations for the matacarpals and cuffs from you previous gauntlets.
--draw your patterns onto the inside of your foundation material.
--cut them out. You can leave a bit of excess everywhere but the wrists. This will let you fudge a bit if your have to.
--sew the wrists. This will be easier before the plates are in. It's also an example of rule where you should do the diciest process first.
--draw the plate locations on the inside of the foundation
--build your plates
--install them in the foundations, using your lines as a guide.... fudging as necessary

Something to try for #4?

Mac

[Steve S.]

OK, I'm sold!

Steve

[Steve S.]

Mac, I figured it out today.

I will lay out the main hand body as I have been, and rivet in the plates as I have been. Start with the metacarpal, then lay down the 4 rows of lames below it.

BUT, I will not rivet in the 4th lame. I will just mark its edge. Then I can cut the wrist edge using those marks from the lames, then stitch the cuff on.

Then, I can rivet in the 4th row of lames, and then rivet in the cuff plates.

I will try it next pair.

Steve

[Steve S.]

More updates at the link above.

Steve