Authentic armor gauges?

Swift_Steel · Post by **Swift_Steel** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:21 pm

In the late 13th century, what gauge metal did they use to make armor with? I've heard that SCA regs. are much heavier, why is that?
back then they had to face battle axes, maces, flails, etc. and we just use sticks.
I may be totaly off, but let me know what you think.

-Steel

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:14 pm

The Armour was much thiner than what the sca requires, however it was heat tempered,makinging it much harder. The great thing was that the thin steel wouldnt dent, it would crack however. For some good info check out valentines site. click on "weights"
http://www.varmouries.com/vhistory.html
The helmets and breastplates wear fairly heavy,most of the rest was pretty thin. Even the elbows and knees, which are required to be 16 gauge in the SCA, were usually about 20 gauge after raising.....Otto

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:14 pm

I can't help you with the actual thicknesses of period pieces, but I can tell you that SCA armor has to be able to hold up to much more constant abuse than the originals did. We also are less concerned with the "less weight" side of the "weight vs. protection" trade off.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 9:02 am

I don't mean to contridict you, Otto, but I don't believe the SCA has a gauge standard for anything but helms. I don't recall anything from my time in the Middle Kingdom, I know Ansteorra has nothing other than on helms, and the society handbook also has nothing. It'd be a bit on the silly side to allow plastic knee cops but mandate a thickness on metal.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 9:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Morgan:
I don't mean to contridict you, Otto, but I don't believe the SCA has a gauge standard for anything but helms. I don't recall anything from my time in the Middle Kingdom, I know Ansteorra has nothing other than on helms, and the society handbook also has nothing. It'd be a bit on the silly side to allow plastic knee cops but mandate a thickness on metal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right there is no thickness requirement except for helms.

On the other note. In all the world there are only 13 surviving pieces which could even possibly be from the 13th century. (Most which claim to be 13th century are fakes or are actually much later) Only one is substantially complete (The barrel helm from the Museum fur Deutsche Geschichte, Berlin) It weighs 5lbs, 10.5 oz. and is about 16 gauge.

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Doug Strong
Sir William Talbot, OL
(The artist formerly know as Talbot Mac Taggart)

http://antiquities.cloud-9.net

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:25 pm

For some odd reson I Thought they were supposed to be 16 gauge on the joints.Maybe because most armourers make them that weight.I must be getting senile, Sorry...Otto

Clay · Post by **Clay** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:38 pm

http://www.wolfeargent.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000034.html

This is another thread that asked the same question. Jeff answers this quite nicely, I think.

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:57 pm

There's no society standard for thickness on anything other than helms, and I'm not sure what the current rule is there, but it's less than the standard. Fact is, armor is expensive and most people only want to buy it once, so it's thicker than necessary so that it'll put up with a pounding.

You also have to look at some differences in theory... a lot of people see maille as a hindrance for sca combat, but in period, it would save your life. And that's the big difference.

If period armorsmiths were in the business of saving all parts of a person, you'd see a lot more suits like Henry 8's original Field of the Cloth of Gold garniture, and a lot fewer finger gauntlets.

The one reference I can think of presently is the case of a high gothic German finger gauntlet that is .5 millimeter thick. You'll break a finger (I've seen a thumb broken by a 16 gauge gauntlet), but you can survive a break a lot more easily than having it cut off.

HELMUT

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:02 pm

There are guage standards for other than helms. East Kingdom armor standards require 16g. steel for the helm, while the neck, elbows, and knees must be covered by "rigid" materials, which, if steel, must be 18g. If guantlets are used, they must also be of "rigid" material.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Jurgen · Post by **Jurgen** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:30 pm

Hey Talbot, do you have a list of those 13 surviving pieces that may be from the 13th century?

Jurgen

Mykaru · Post by **Mykaru** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 7:47 pm

Morgan,
Check your regulations again. Ansteorra requires min of 16 ga. (.065 or thicker for helms). Elbows and knees is 18 ga. OR equivalent rigid material. Equivalent is stretched sometimes but marshalls won't pass 18 ga. plastic. It has to be thick enough to provide equivalent protection. I've seen double-layered saddle leather hardened coppes. I don't like them but they meet the rules.

Vade · Post by **Vade** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 3:27 pm

I think another reason for the SCA's minimum guage requirements is due to the wide quality range of modern armouring. Someof you out there spend countless days creating beautiful and sturdy suits that far exceed their original counterparts in protective capacity. Those armoureres who are proud of their craft and work always to improve their skills. Then there are those who bend a piece of sheet steel into a half-tube, rivet on some straps and buckles and glue a little padding on the inside and call it "armor." Well, it's not armour, it's garbage but there aren't enough trully skilled armourers to produce for everyone out there who wants to take the field. And some of THOSE people wouldn't spend the money on quality, they just want to get out and have a good time- not caring how they LOOK and how optimal their gear is, just so long as it protects. It is for that combination of people (bad craftsmen/don't-care-about-my-armour fighters) that armour standards have to exist. That way, even bent steel tubes will keep you safe..... -ish.

--vade

Matt Easton · Post by **Matt Easton** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 5:09 pm

This topic is too complex to answer in one post or on a forum - you could write books about it.

Medieval and renaissance armour was lighter than most modern harnesses, except for a handfull of modern armourers who are using authentic guages..

SCA combat, as I understand (I am a Western Martial Artist) requires a whole different set of requisites to medieval combat - for example, in longsword fighting, if you study Liberi, Talhoffer, Vadi etc, then you will quite quickly see, that sword-armed opponents are not advised to try to bash through each others' armour, as this would be a waste of time and energy - all the techniques are aimed at bypassing the armour - stabs and thrusts at the joints and week spots, and using grappling to throw, lock, or break your opponent (ie, break his arm and his armour is useless anyway)...

You cannot compare armour designed for SCA fighting and armour for fighting to the death or at least hospitalisation in the medieval period.

Contrary to what one person said also, not all armour was heat treated - there is little evidence for armour being heat treated (except great-helms) until the last quarter of the 14thC, and even at the height of the 15thC development, in the 1460's, generally German gothic plate was tempered (though not always) while the Italian Milanese centres did not temper their armour, but instead made it thicker and heavier, though this was still lighter than SCA armour. Modern metalurgical studies have shown that even the most expensive German armour of the late 15thC was not always pure enough from impurities to allow succesful heat-treatment.

Matt Easton
The Exiles
www.the-exiles.org (come and check out our site and forum)

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:35 pm

Opppps, did it again, Didnt realize you were talking 13th cent, the early armour wasnt tempered,Matts right on that.Most of the better quality armour from the later periods 15th &16 th was however....Otto

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 7:42 pm

Hmmm about the Italian Armour being not heat treated, I dont know,If it wasnt it was made from better quality steel than the modern mild I think, As all the peices in my personal collection,and the armours I have examined,had numerous cracks, but no dents,except for the bullet proofed armours.
.....Otto

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 9:52 pm

Perhaps this has already been stated.
Plate armour did not start from a sheet of steel, as far as I understand. Therefore, if you heat a billet of iron and start flattening it into the sheet, the thickness will vary.
As you shape the billet into the shape of the armour, there are also a few other things to consider. For instance, leaving ridges, crowns, peaks of breastplates, left side of helms, a tad thicker to compensate as the usual defensive side.
And another thing. I fight with blades, rather than sca clubs - not necessarily passing judgement. The thing is, 18 gauge is plenty thick for most sword fighting. Metal is smooth, and if the body within it is moving, this makes it very difficult to deal a direct blow. Hardened 20gauge would be more than enough; I think a lot of big guys underestimate the speed of a mid-sized(and skilled) swordsman in well-fitted and lightweight armour.
The gauge debate, however, won't get solved until it's legal to fight to the death. Then we'd all know that I'm right.

------------------
IdÃ«val
The Huntsman of
I-NossÃ« LÃºmÃ«vanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 6:16 am

I too would be interested in Talbot's list: I might even be able to add a "possible fake" to the list.

Seriously, outside of helms and poleyns, 13th cetury armor means mail. I'm afraid the number of possible 13th century mail items is perhaps too small to judge an accurate gauge.

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 10:46 am

Matt, the more I think about this I bet you are 100% correct.When steel is hammered it hardens,considering the the peices were hammered from billets (early) or much thicker plates(late) the steel would harden enough to crack without any heat temper at all.Not that the steel was really different, but the way it was worked would make a huge difference.If and armourer took a 12 gauge plate and hammered it out to a 20 gauge vambrace, it would be hard as a rock! Thanks for getting me thinking! I love to think, I'm just not real good at it. LOL....Otto

Ideval · Post by **Ideval** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:06 pm

That is assuming cold-forging only.
To condense and spread 12gauge to 20, I bet some measure of annealing (fire) would be needed. I think the metal would split under the hammer, rather than an axe or sword.

IdÃ«val

------------------
IdÃ«val
The Huntsman of
I-NossÃ« LÃºmÃ«vanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar

Swift_Steel · Post by **Swift_Steel** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:42 pm

Ideval, so what are the requirements for your live steel group?

-Steel

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:38 pm

Actually the "steel" was *VERY* different.

Mild steel as we know it was a product of the Bessemer process that dates from the *19th* century!

Prior to that the cementation process or blister steel process was used to change real wrought iron---a composite material---into steel.

So basically anytime you try to base medieval renaissance practice on how mild steel works today you are starting with a flawed premise!

Thomas Powers history of ferrous metals maven

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 5:43 pm

Hi All,

To the best of my understanding, there has never been a scientific survey of armour thickness undertaken (although it is being considered). A part of the problem is a plate varies in thickness across its surface, intentionaly made so that the thickest part faces the greatest threat.

Ideval, by my understanding sheet iron and mild steel had been produced at hammermills from the end of the 14th c., and rolling mills toward the middle of the 16th c. There are records surviving for large shops like Missaglias buying sheet from specialists, just as they farmed out the manufacture of hinges and polishing to specialists. Sheet wrought in a hammermill would be by no means as uniform as sheet from a rolling mill.

Thomas is absolutely correct, iron & steel produced in 'period' were not homogenous in composition, and had slag inclusions. Unfortunately for us all, speaking to several experts in the field of armour recently I have been informed that the scrap iron with slag inclusions readily available from 19th c. and even 18th c. scrap is also substantialy different in composition from wrought iron produced in Medieval and Classical antiquity - if you want to split hairs to that level.

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Bob R.

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Tue Mar 27, 2001 6:57 pm

SASHA!!!!!!! COME IN HERE!

I will try to put my two cents in then let Sasha take over and explain period armour making using a forge. I'm really sure, but have no proof, that period armourers would of hammered a hot peice of iron out into a sheet. This in turn made the iron very soft. If the iron was quenched it would become very brittle. So in fact a combonation of those two extremes would produce a heat treated iron. When a lot of carbon is added to the iron it will become a steel. However, I think most or all armour from the 13th century was made from wrought iron that was case hardened.I do believe that case hardening would actually make the iron into a mild steel, but you will have to ask Sasha on that one.

Ohh by the way my two cents added above is in reference to the 13th century. I belive later armourers could aquire pre-flattened sheets of steel.
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"As you hear the teuton war cry roll through the hills,you will then see the bear"
Heil Rittertum,

Harold the Bear
Herzog von Sachsen

[This message has been edited by Harold the Bear (edited 03-27-2001).]

Patchwerk · Post by **Patchwerk** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 9:41 am

Does anyone know what gauge lorica segmentata was made of?

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 12:21 pm

Lorica Segmantata was (IIRC) typically 18-20 guage.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Patchwerk · Post by **Patchwerk** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 1:57 pm

I should have mentioned that I'm look for the sources too.

Dwarlock · Post by **Dwarlock** » Wed Mar 28, 2001 2:38 pm

Harold, I'm not Sasha (if I were I bet his family would be upset) but I think I can handle this one.

Iron's hardness (iron with no carbon content) is not affected by a heat treatment, Iron that is case hardened, forms a thin (sometimes up to 1/16th) surface of very high carbon steel, case hardened steel, that is folded, and and case hardened again, and folded some more, can make a steel much like the pattern welded steel commenly called damascus. I know case hardening was known in the 13th century, but I'm not sure it was used in armour manufacture. I can't find it but I thought the archive once had an essay on steel types found in historic armours. perhaps the essay was on another site, anyone know?

Raselsnarf · Post by **Raselsnarf** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 8:37 pm

Well, in regards to armor requirments in Live steel groups I can tell you of mine. In the Adrian Empire you must have

Head: A fully enclosed helm of no less than 14 gauge steel with a full face plate,
having all seams welded or riveted together. Padding and a chinstrap are required.
The openings on the visor shall not be wider than Â¾ inch in any direction.

Neck: If the helm does not feature a built in gorget or camail of at least 16 gauge
steel then a separate gorget of leather reinforced with no less than 16 gauge steel
or steel equivalent. Gorget and helm must have Â½ inch overlap.
Shoulders: Spaulders of at least 16 gauge steel or covered by chainmail hauberk
or shirt.

Body: Must be protected by any one of the following or greater.
a. Chainmail hauberk or shirt with chausses of at least 16 gauge steel
with a maximum inside ring diameter of 5/16 inch. For 14 gauge steel
a maximum inside ring diameter of 1/2 inch and for 12 gauge steel or
larger a maximum inside ring diameter of 7/8 inch.

b. Brigadine (coat of plates) of either high impact plastic or at least 16
gauge steel plates mounted to leather or heavy canvas with no gap
greater than 1/2 inch. Front should over lap back.

c. Rigid cuirbouilli of at least 10-ounce leather. (Normal Leather does
not constitute cuirbouilli. It must be cured/hardened.)

d. Breast and back plate of at least 16 gauge steel or greater that overlap
at the sides.
Arms & Legs: Elbows and knees must be covered by at least 16 gauge articulated
steel cups with wing. Cop must be steel, articulations can be other material
(Leather, etc). Upper and lower arm and upper leg must be covered with at least
16 gauge steel plate or chainmail or rigid cuirbouilli of at least 10-ounce leather.
Hands: Gauntlets of at least 16-gauge steel must be worn at all times during steel
combat. Gauntlets may be of any design as long as full hand and wrist protection is
achieved. Heavy leather gloves like welding gloves, are required as a minimum for
the inside of shields, however, gauntlets or basket cages are highly recommended.

Feet: Footwear that pro vides ankle support is required. Heavy boots such as those
used for work or hiking is considered ideal.

Pheww!! Now that is a mouth full, how bout a little more

Armor - For class E and F weapons.
The same as for class D weapons with the following additions.

Shoulders: 16 gauge solid metal spaulders that completely cover the shoulder or
equivalent.

Body: Minimum of 14-gauge chainmail with rigid protection over the kidney area
and sides. Plate mail or Brigadine is highly recommended.

Arms & Legs: Upper/lower arms and upper legs must be covered by minimum of
16 gauge plate or plating added to 10 ounce leather.

Okay thats all for Live steel in Adrian Emperial combat manual. If you guys would like to read our full manual you can view them at our web page at http:\\www.adrianempire.org

Well, on that note I am out of here, good luck on the search for knowledge

------------------
Kiernan Delaney
The Drunken Irishman

[This message has been edited by Raselsnarf (edited 03-29-2001).]

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 2:14 am

wow....what a confusedd thread!

Okay, since I was summoned. Harold, you are mostly wrong and Dwarlock is mostly right. Of course that is stricktly my opinion, since we lef the original topic a faiir way behind and I get the impression that your question strikes even further out I am only really guessing about what it is you want to *know*.

What I am most noticing in this thread is that we have very similar libraries....and then some of us take it way further then that.

We have all seen the gauntlet section in Arms and Armour that is .5mm of tempered steel. That is high gothic. I was going to jump up and down on how totally different that was to 13thC materials, but sveral of you have already done this. A lot of 13thC stuff was still iron. Some of it shows evidence (Scotland and the low-countries especially) of a form of case hardening that involves baking in a vessel full of pot-ash.

A book that has a very out of date survey of metal compositions used for armouring is ffoulkes. I know that the book is wrong in a couple of places (thank you, chef) but it definately has a materials breakdown.

The first reciprocating powerhammers came into production in the 1350's. these were the basis of the hammer mills that have been spoken of earlier. You can actually find out a fair bit about this side of steel production through church records. The Pope, you see, promptly made a decleration banning the use of these machines, effectivally stole the invention from the two iitalian brothers that came up with it, and then declared that only church owned smithies may use them. Don't you just love period free-trade?

As a result, most of the records dealing with the composition, sales, transport and so forth of steel ingots and sheet made in a number of countries IS available....it just means going through different books or raw data (if anyone wants to put together their thesis now). Whether the catholic church was "good" or "bad" they had an excellent bueracracy that filed EVERYTHING.

By the way. There are examples of period armour (mostly form the joust) that go up past 4mm thick!

I also recall a comparitive weights and measres chart on someone's website (I have also seen it in a book years ago, but not one I own). It did a breakdown of total harness weight across 5 countries and across the centuries from 1000-1650. Every square was devided into half with one half being jousting/sports armour and the other being combat/field armour. I think it was "averaged" out to the point where no specific measurement was all that accurate....but it still made interesting reading.
Some day I shall remember to print those things out WHEN I FIND THEM, rather then just saying "hmmm, that's interesting" and bookmarking the site.
(that was one hard-drive ago, so I do not still have the bookmarks)

Anyway.

Back to reciproacting hammers and steel and such.

The variation in steels available was huge. the "advertising" was cut-throat in a way that Nike could not begin to imagine. Some places called anything of bad quality "milanese steel" and others considered milanese steel to be the best thing since flame-retardent under-truse.

One guild journal extract form the armourers of london states that the rough sea voyage for a recently arrived cargo shiip had rendered the much expected steel from innsbruck nearly useless as it was now overhard and prone to shatter.
Then it states that they re-negotiated the price and used it anyway!

This is a huge field of study that I am really not qualified to give authorititive answers on. I know how little I know.

Most hammer mill made sheet was hot-worked for at least part of the process....there are woodcuts showing the billets being worked with long tongs and being placed into and removed from forges close at hand.

Most sheets produced from hammer mills seems to have still been quite thick when it left. I get the impression that the idea was to produce something that was easiier to cut lumps off then an ingot or "bloom" would have been. Something that had been sufficiently worked to be well blended (compared to the alternatives).

An armourer may well have bought a 4mm sheet of this and then hacked off an appropriate bit and started thinning it to the specific iitem he was making. Experience would reduce the wastage from this process to nearly nothing. If you are cutting all steel out form a pre-thickened sheet (say 16ga) then you cannot help but have some wastage because some pieces just done't lnterlock on a flat sheet.

Anyway. I am rambling now. too many powertools not enough coffee

Sasha
....I have just further muddied the waters without shinning any kind of light on anything, haven't I?

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:54 am

One thing we don't really have a gut feeling for nowdays is the *variability* of basic raw materials in medieval/renaissance times---shoot even in the 1880's-90's smiths were advise to *test* every new load of iron/steel to see how it would work ("Practical Blacksmithing" Richardson) and this was after 100+ years of the industrial revolution had gone by!

Bloomery iron's properties depend on ore, charcoal, furnace shape and size, how hard it was blown, time in the furnace, location of the bloom in the furnace; how it was consolidated---so many factors that I'd just about accept phase of the moon and alcohol content of the beer provided to the smelters!

Making blister steel from it adds in another slew of variables. Using "natural steel" from the smelting process is almost as bad.

One thing though it takes time and money to process wrought iron into the higher grades; one step up from the bloom is muck bar, process this and you get "merchant bar" a commonly sold item (hence the name). Anyone have info on what grade the plate was bought for the armourers? It may be that they took the larger thicker stock so that their hammering it down would refine it some more.

Sasha; any cites would be greatly appreciated I'm almost finished with C.S.Smith's SOURCES FOR THE HISTORY OF THE SCIENCE OF STEEL, 1532-1786 the period tempering methods are interesting to say the least! I'm into the 18th century and they are just about to figure out what is added to iron to make steel (over 1000 years after they were making it on a regular basis)

Thomas