Trying to repair and fight in old loaner cuisses

[Alan Tynneker]

At the last practice in my area, I was offered a set of leg armor, as I'm currently trying (again) to put a kit together. The straps are damaged and missing; it has a number of rivets fashioned from a copper roofing nail and a penny, and it's quite dented and rusty. It articulates reasonably well considering its condition, though. I'd like to restore, if not improve the armor, even if I should decide not to fight it will serve another instead of gathering rust. I do not have a persona period in mind, for the moment I'm just hoping for perioid and comfortable to play in.

I have a talent for picking up new skills, if I can only get my head around the basics. I have searched the forum for a few hours looking for useful information, but I thought I'd ask for tips that are more targeted.

I'm currently thinking about a sandbag and a rounded plastic or other non-mar hammer to get the majority of the dents out and for general adjustment. I don't have much in the way of metalworking tools, just a cheap ball-peen and a 50lb HF anvil-shaped-object. I can likely afford some other basic tools that would make the job easier.

I have really no idea how to 'hang' them. I tried a very similar pair of legs with straps intact but they were really irritating to move in. There was a thread I found that had a few different suggestions but I was having a hard time visualizing what the various descriptions meant in terms of actual construction. I DO have a good supply of armor-weight leather, and a good grasp of textile sewing and such, so I can build arming garments. I almost think it would be most comfortable to make some sort of padded trousers which the armor ties to directly, rather than strapping in multiple places.

Mostly, I'm not sure what terms I should be using, and I'd like some focused suggestions, if anyone has suggestions. Thanks in advance for any and all help.

Click to Embiggen

[Konstantin the Red]

Welcome back, Allen! Been a while.

Yeah, putting leggings on about like a pair of chaps would work.

Basically, any straps-only/points-only suspension scheme without leggings beneath works well with straps in two locations per leg: the jeans outseam, where there is no change of length between one leg position and another relative to the belt or the suspension-harness that some refuse to call a pourpoint. The other and subsidiary location for the other strap/point is around two inches ahead of the outseam-location strap -- like about the middle of the jeans front pockets.

A suspension strap dead-center-forward, not displaced laterally, is no good at all and it will bug you; don't put one there.

A very good method is to put a crescent of leather at the top end of the cuisse and attach your straps or tie your points to holes made in the leather -- easy to adjust if you want to fiddle with it.

[losthelm]

Well it looks the the articulation is fairly rough on the lower lames.
, a once over with steel wool or sanding sponge to remove rust.
The straps need to be replaced. I'm not sure how much of the cuisses need trimming, its hard to tell without seeing them worn. It may help to add a second plate to wrap around the outer thigh.
It may require the rivets to be center punched and drilled for removal.

Updating your location may help find somone local with tools and experience.
Pointing to the dublet or a C belt will help.
Konstantin mentioned a few places to add points or straps.

[Konstantin the Red]

The rise to lateral (L and R sides) of the cuisses is extreme; they look like they go to about the beltline. Going up to the great trochanter of the thighbone (the hard spot) and not much higher is really enough. Such revising may call for the slope from outseam to crotch to actually be steepened a bit. Give 'em a test fit and see if you think they go with most humans' upper legs, or if they really end up somewhere odd.

Allan's located in Shire of Golden Rivers, middle of the West Kingdom.

[Alan Tynneker]

Thank you both for your responses. You have already given me a better direction to start with.

There are already two mounting holes at about the point where the cuisses hang in a neutral position, just to the outside of dead front, so it looks like someone had them mounted like that in the past. I saw a number of photos online with them strapped in that location, but after wearing the loaner set, I know I want something more effective.

To me, they seem to be a reasonable fit, especially if I do some sort of light padding where the cuisses aren't. I'm thinking perhaps even something with pockets for metal or plastic plates in strategic locations but hides them. They come to perhaps an inch below the great trochanter when the knee sits neatly over my kneecap. Both legs can be straitened completely and will bend further than my knee joint will!

My thought, so far, for cleaning up the metal's appearance is the wire brush treatment I used for my elbows and helm, they turned out pretty decent - brushed them thoroughly and coated with rustoleum clear just as a preventative measure. These are quite beat up, so I'm not the least bit worried about the finish. I'm much more interested in making them fit and feel good. In place of the foam and duct tape that currently wrap the edge of the shin piece, I'm thinking it might be suitable to attach a piece of leather that covers the remainder of the lower leg, strapping around the calf? Maybe just a strip of leather stitched around the edge like seam binding. I think it would be a lot prettier to roll that edge but I don't know nearly enough to try that. :p

I should probably update my profile, though. I'm still near enough to Golden Rivers, but have since moved north toward Barony of Rivenoak, Cynagua, West Kingdom. His Highness suggested an open workshop night, but it is a long way to drive, late in the evening on a Monday.

[Konstantin the Red]

In re basic exterior-turned edge rolls: turning the metal edge to the outside of a curvature like that one calls for a couple things to happen, and wants an anvil/substitute like track to do it with. The metal is to end up with bent ninety degrees from where it started, and the metal's going to have to get thinner and spread out, especially along the edge.

Alternate between bending it a ways and then hammering all the edge a lot, then bend some more and hammer again. The bent angle of the metal changes its length not at all, not there. The very edge of the metal which is making up the extremity of the roll changes its length distinctly.

It's like making a length of bar stock bend from straight to flatly curved, in plan, by beating one edge of the bar with a ball pein. That metal gets thinned and pushed apart and the bar perforce bends. This is like it, but it's backwards: the metal is already bent, now you just need to lengthen that one edge.

To complete the roll, you persuade the stretched-out, lengthened and thinned edge to curl over back toward the rest of the plate. Getting the very edge curled over tightly (more so than the rest of the roll) tucks the edge in under everything. With that tuck-in done to make what you bent start going like this ¯¯J, use a soft mallet or light hammerstrokes to bend the rest down and around until you've passed through a stage like C¯¯ and all the way in to an O¯¯. In sum, the little tuck-in is the first part of the roll that's rolled, followed by the rest of the roll down and around.

It's easier around a wire, as the roll is in no risk of collapsing through clumsy hammering. But the wire wants tackwelds to keep it firmly in place while you monkey with everything else. This is the kind of job a small, feeble, cheapie 110V stick-welder is suited to.

[Konstantin the Red]

Does that demigreave really want to stay over to the inside of your lower leg, or is that just a happenstance when you took your stance?

[Alan Tynneker]

(Thanks so much for your replies, I got distracted by a new consort. )

Happenstance. It actually sits very nicely over my knee and lower leg. I think with proper mounting it should be quite suitable.

I think your suggestions above will be quite useful. I have a serviceable anvil, I may get some scrap and work on trying your suggestions. I'm reminded of the technique used for making a ring out of a coin, only different. I think I could probably manage it, the metal is already beat to hell along that edge anyway.

Any suggestions for nice straps? The existing/remaining straps appear to be a combination of old leather and nylon strap, both of which I want to get rid of. My chest has some simple strips of thin veg-tanned leather that look terrible but work. For these, I'd prefer something that will last and look decent. I'll browse the forum to see if I find anything.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Allan, here is a rather nice tutorial on rolling an edge, which can drastically stiffen and strengthen the plate.

http://www.ageofarmour.com/education/ar ... dges1.html

As to strapping, I personally like oil-tanned leather. Other options are latigo leather, or even leather that has been reinforced with fabric (glued to the flesh side). Making it all look good is another set of skills entirely...dyeing, tooling, custom buckles, metal plates and so on.

[Alan Tynneker]

I did find a good suggestion for latigo, but I'll explore Tandy and see what looks good.

I like the idea of hammering up some homemade buckles like I've seen on the archive, I have a good torch and a decent anvil. Maybe pound out the messy copper rivets and put in some brass ones with nice washers and decorate the rivet heads.

THANK YOU for the link. I'm sure that will make it much easier. That's why I come here and don't just go Googling around for information, people have go-to sources for information they find to be useful.

[Alan Tynneker]

Okay, I brushed out a lot of the rust and removed several of the rotted straps, as well as hammering out the worst of the distortions.

There are still a lot of hammer scars from previous repairs, I even had to weld a crack near one of the rivet holes.

I really need some advice here. I got the materials to make up some nice brass buckles and mount them using metal straps. I can't seem to find good pictures of how this would be done correctly, but I guess I can always fake it. Should I take out all the rivets, hammer out the cosmetic damage, roll a couple edges, tighten the articulation, sand and polish these, or just get them ready to wear? They move well now, they're just UGLY.

I got some nice leather strap scraps from Bettrun's, exactly what I was looking for and they should work fine. The buckles I hammered up will be suitable for any strapping I need to do. I'm just in that 'thinking instead of doing' place because I don't want to waste weeks working on a sow's ear, but OTOH I feel like I could improve these a lot.

Maybe I should just get them working, wear them a while and see if they need further alterations then. Or just use them until they need repairs again.

[Ursus Epicurius]

Are you planning on working on or making more?

If so, then keep working on this until you are happy with it or overwork it. Practice is good.

If not, then get it to where it is ok, and live with it until something better comes along.

As long as it is safe, ugly metal armor is a step up from most plastic I see on the field. Ultimately only you can say what your time is worth. I will say that as long as the metal is good, adding to it shouldn't be wasted work.

[Alan Tynneker]

Long overdue update: I got discouraged and gave up for a while. I'm back at practice and there are a lot of enthusiastic men-at-arms to practice with and work on armor with - although no one has any idea how to actually work on armor. There's a reason all the loaner gear is in mismatched pieces.

I moved to Paradise, CA this spring and have a nice little shop to work in now. It's a bit disorganized with storage, glassworking stuff, armor stuff, and moneyers' stuff, but I have enough room to work.

I grabbed a cheap grinder from Harbor Freight and killed a few rivets, removing the demigreaves from both legs. Rounded them out so they fit around the shin instead of flapping around over them, then rolled the bottom edge. With all the previous hammer scars and damage, they're not terribly pretty but the roll turned out nice looking. They're not symmetrical but I'm happy with the result.

I need to whack out a few more rivets, fix the curvature of the lames, bang out the dents on the knees, et cetera.

Is it a good idea to roll the hip "side" of the large plates? - I'm doubtful that the harness is even perioid, I couldn't find pictures of a well-crafted and working cousin to this pair of legs.
How can I lessen the flattening of the lames and demigreaves from knee-fighting? - I'm a plebe, I WILL be fighting from my knees.
Can I fix the awful hammer work on the fan? Should I bother? I don't know what they were thinking when they put that line in, but it's ugly. Probably didn't have the right hammer.

Images after edge-rolling demigreaves, plus views of other problem areas - http://imgur.com/a/WYNiD

[Konstantin the Red]

Hey, wow! -- the reclaim-legs are back!

As fans go, you're right; they are pretty formless, and unpretty consequently. You're probably right about the makers not having the best hammer, or anything like a decent creasing stake.

You might simply want to make a fan shape you like better and rivet fans on as separately made pieces, rather than reworking those shapeless tablike things in place. They'd make a good thing to rivet well shaped fans onto, though. With their limited size, you don't even have a lot of scope for recutting them into dogbone fans, and the amount of shop time either way for you is going to be much the same. Best to avoid undertaking anything markedly eccentric with what's present when replacing it entirely might be more trouble free. Either will give experience, but the latter would more easily give you something usable as well.

Is it a good idea to roll the hip "side" of the large plates?

If you mean the outseam vertical, or lateral, edge of the cuisse, I think a better option for the rolling is the top edges. Leave the vertical edge be. To be more perioid. If you want more coverage across the back of your thigh against wraps, no rule against hingeing another plate back there.

How can I lessen the flattening of the lames and demigreaves from knee-fighting?

I think the roll on the demis will have fixed that part of it. As for the lames, a stoutly built knee cop should help with that, the cop bearing up under the kneeling better and sheltering the lames better thus. All the better if the cops are good and globose, with depth to them.

How's the articulation about the cop now? Sticky and gappy, or smooth? Smoothish?

[Galileo]

Re: Knee Fighting. I have bad knees. Knee fighting would end my bouts for the day really fast. So, I don't bother fighting from knees - a leg shot on me is a kill shot.

[Alan Tynneker]

Konstantin - Yup! I am a cyclic crafter, I've been doing all sorts of things instead of armor. I hadn't thought of upgrading the fans - that might have been the original plan, who knows. Great idea. I definitely meant the top lateral, or rather the sloped pelvic edge. It's already pretty awful, I couldn't make it much worse. The top lames are quite fluid with no gapping/overextension. The below-the-knee lames are badly flattened and while they move some, the distortion is making them stick. Still no gaps though. The depth of the cop could probably use some work, it's really just dished a bit. I think if I banged out the distortion, the articulation would be quite serviceable. I've seen a lot of the fighters in the group just "wham" down on their knees every time they get legged.

Hmm, thanks Galileo. I guess that would be educational in a different way. My only knee problem is a calcification that stings once in a while. I heard it's not against the rules to fight one-legged like the Black Knight, but not many people try it.


After sorting through the rest of the loaner "bits", I realize I probably got the most functional set of legs there was in the bunch. One of them looks like the Hulk tried to make the Tin Man with his fists and a car hood. The most of the batch was hand-me-downs from another knight who collected junk. ^.^ Yesterday I whacked out the rivets on both legs and there is a good amount of mud and surface rust jammed between those below-the-knee lames. My current goal is to bang out the dents and get the lames matching the curvature of the demigreave. I may try rolling the aforementioned edge in the next day or so.

In other news I got my right vambrace and elbow fitting well, it needs some kind of rerebrace though. I told Sir Bjorn (the host of the practice and armor night) that I was making my burrs out of brass sheet and he said, "That is the most Allan idea I've heard all day." I'm not sure whether that was a compliment or not. It turned out looking pretty sweet for a donor hack job. His advice was a short leather segment above the elbow cop, just enough to cover the triceps (I think.) My girl is also buying me a pattern book on "The Pourpoint of Charles de Blois" for the holidays, or that's what she asked if I wanted.

[Amanda M]

If you want to make your own buckles, check out this video by Eric Dube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40K-ywiB_Sc

I made a bunch of my own buckles and buckle plates using the same basic techniques. It's super easy. I do not have a band saw, I used a jig saw with a good metal cutting blade to do the buckle plates, and used my dremel with a cutoff wheel to trim them instead of the bandsaw. I took an old railroad spike and cut the head off, then ground it to form the little stake to clamp and bend the buckles around. Used the dremel again to cut between a pair of punched holes to form the slot.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/ ... e=58A69E33

[Alan Tynneker]

Thanks Amanda - I found a similar video before and I've been making workable brass buckles by annealing, shaping, soldering, and hardening brass rod. I should try making some steel ones, but the brass looks great with the vambrace. I made a frame for a smaller figure-eight brass buckle for the elbow, but I need to get it out of the "annealing bubbles" I used for hardening and make the tongue.