They're at it again

[Aaron]

OK, this statement got Maureen and I to thinking:

I will take maximum 15 days.

I would like to good armourers here to go through a thought experiment with me.


Could you build Dr. Tobias Capwell's fantastically beautiful suit of armour in 15 days if you had

(a) the ultimate armourer workshop with every possible tool from today to the dawn of time, set up in a stadium that could host the Super Bowl

(b) unlimited budget

(c) a perfect full body cast of the client that was set up to walk around the room courtesy of DARPA and Google....let's even assume that the full body cast could even answer any questions about the client.

(d) EVERY armourer who has ever logged into the Archive is there in attendance (sitting in the stadium seating I guess), and at your beck and call 24/7 and ready to do the work at the absolute peak of their skill.

(e) unlimited amounts of the finest beer ever crafted in Europe.



I don't know if it is even hypothetically possible to make that suit in 15 days. However I must admit that thinking about (a) through (e) did make a very heartwarming daydream for me. If the armourers got the suit done in the 15 days, the drunken armourers singing would be epic IMO.

[Ckanite]

Well, we'don't definitely have one hell of a party afterwards! Lol

[Signo]

Aaron, this suit could have been definitely been built in 15 days in his age, maybe just except the decorations , because to make them you obviously need to have the suit done. The work would have been split in different specialized shops to make all the necessary steps. It could have involved the work of a lot of people, so you can have a match in the manhours employed. You must account that in his age it was not "one of a kind" so the people involved in building it would have not needed to develop custom patterns for each single piece, and fiddle all the assemblies, a lot of these steps would have been routine for them.
If a noob like me notice that I can employ half the time to make a second piece of something, then I can't think how fast one of them could crank out a piece that he made on a daily basis. We probably would start to cry if we could see them work.
So, to have this suit done in this timespan, we just need a DeLorean.

[schreiber]

Well everyone with AAOMK knows that Henry VIII's tonlet armor was "rushed", and if that's correct, then this one HAD to be built in 3 months, since that was the timeframe they had after the rules were changed.



If you want to talk all the time and talent you can get, that situation was AFAIK pretty much it, wasn't it? Were there more than a half dozen equally equipped and staffed shops in the world at that time?

I'm assuming that part of that 3 months had to be accounted for fitting, adjustments, and padding, but even if that was a whole month then we're still talking four times the amount of time these diving helmet jokers are claiming.


But anyway, Mac, I'd still like to know how long it ACTUALLY took... that's going to be part of the punchline.

[Aaron]

So my Super Bowl stadium of talent could work? Cool!

[Matthew Amt]

OK, this statement got Maureen and I to thinking:

I will take maximum 15 days.

I would like to good armourers here to go through a thought experiment with me.


Could you build Dr. Tobias Capwell's fantastically beautiful suit of armour in 15 days if you had

(a) the ultimate armourer workshop with every possible tool from today to the dawn of time, set up in a stadium that could host the Super Bowl

(b) unlimited budget

(c) a perfect full body cast of the client that was set up to walk around the room courtesy of DARPA and Google....let's even assume that the full body cast could even answer any questions about the client.

(d) EVERY armourer who has ever logged into the Archive is there in attendance (sitting in the stadium seating I guess), and at your beck and call 24/7 and ready to do the work at the absolute peak of their skill.

(e) unlimited amounts of the finest beer ever crafted in Europe.



I don't know if it is even hypothetically possible to make that suit in 15 days. However I must admit that thinking about (a) through (e) did make a very heartwarming daydream for me. If the armourers got the suit done in the 15 days, the drunken armourers singing would be epic IMO.

But they aren't actually using a hammer for any of this, are they? I'm guessing it will all be pressed or stamped, with an edge roller jenny and maybe something as complex as an English wheel for some parts, all welded together, with some kind of riveting gun for assembly. A couple 12-year-olds running the buffers. Sure, to any of us it won't look a THING like the stolen photos, but all too many potential customers won't be able to see the difference.

Also, to us these guys are crooks, but over in India this is just business as usual! REALLY different outlook and ethic, legal or not. Doesn't excuse anything when they go international, though! Can't help thinking I'm still in the wrong business, though...

Matthew

[Mac]

I'm not sure what our ancestors were capable of, but I am pretty confident that you could not find armorers who could do that today.

There is said to be an inscription on the inside of the helmet brim of the a la Romana armor by Bartolomeo Campi that reads to the effect of "done in two months, what should have taken a year". That gives us one data point anyway.



I think it possible that the fellows who make the armor for the Ebay vendor in question may be able to make a full decorated suit of the sort they are accustomed to making in the specified time. It would only bear a superficial resemblance to the thing in their picture, of course. These same guys could be trained to make something with better proportions, and that could happen in the same time frame. They could also be trained to make more subtle shapes, but those would take longer to build. How much longer?.... I don't know.

I was only partly joking when I said "I bowed to their production techniques". If the market were big enough and the customers had enough taste and discrimination, I am sure that these guys could do remarkable things. As it is, however, they will turn out the same old crap a high speeds, because that's what sells.

The Indo/Pak manufacturers are doing a fine job of producing what the people want at a price they are willing to pay. If there was a big enough market for high quality armor, they would tool up and swamp us.... all of us... including the Eastern Europeans.

Mac

[Mac]

Well everyone with AAOMK knows that Henry VIII's tonlet armor was "rushed", and if that's correct, then this one HAD to be built in 3 months, since that was the timeframe they had after the rules were changed.

I hesitate to put much faith in that. There is something decidedly hinky about that whole "Field of the Cloth of Gold/armor rules change" thing.

We have the famous foot combat armor that was said to have been left unfinished because of the rules change.



He also have the tonlette armor that Henry is said to have worn instead.



I have been in the presence of both of those armors and gone back and forth between them, examining them with the critical eye of an experienced armorer. The problem is that the unfinished armor is for a bigger man than the tonlette armor. It's bigger in all of its circumferences; especially the greaves. The man who was being fitted for the one could not have been stuffed into the other.

I really don't know what the truth of it is, but it's not what we have been told.
Mac

[coreythompsonhm]

And dont forget, the tonlet armour is silvered as well.

[Mac]

And dont forget, the tonlet armour is silvered as well.

I think you may be conflating it with this one.



Mac

[coreythompsonhm]

Ah yes, you are correct!

[Aaron]

Hi Mac,

You are the only one who could guess at how long it would take to make Toby's suit.

So IF you had the ultimate armouring shop, and 300 younger copies of you with your current skill, and unlimited equipment, materials and money to fund this shop, could this 300 Mac/Spartans build Toby's suit within 15 days?

-Aaron

[Mac]

I'm pretty sure that the way to make an armor rapidly is not to just throw people at it. There is an order in which things must happen.

There's nothing special about that armor, really. Anyone who runs a shop with employees is in a better position to answer it than I am, but none of them are in position to really give you a good answer. The masters of the Missaglia workshops could have given you a good answer, but their specialized knowledge is lost to us.

If Mr. Diving-Manufacturer says his people can make a full armor of the sort they are accustomed to making in 15 days, and he is being truthful, then we might be able to extrapolate from that. If making a nice armor is 4 times a hard as making a crappy armor, then perhaps a skilled team could do it in two months.

That's a wild-assed guess, but it's the best I do.

Mac

[Aaron]

Thanks!

[Tobias Capwell]

I just found this thread and it's cheered me up no end on what otherwise is a pretty boring office day. You guys are too funny. I avoided the initial phase of p. 1 outrage, as Mac previously told me about this eBay business. I had no idea that the AA had declared war on this poor garbage peddler. Hilarious.

On the subject of rate of production though, I am reminded of an unsourced reference published in the Park Lane Arms Fair catalogue a while ago.... (from Dobson, C., 'Saint George's Workforce', Park Lane Arms Fair 19 (2002), pp. 9-13):

'In 1452, Cicco Simonetta approached the Duke of Milan, Francesco Sforza, on behalf of a consortium of three armourers. he stated that each of the three could undertake to supply six armours for a man-at-arms daily. That is a total of eighteen armours daily, or 4500 armours per annum, from just one consortium.'

Chris has in the past done some work in Italian civic archives, and perhaps this comes from the Archivio di Stato in Milan, but if it does the document is not given in the references. That's a bit of a shame, as without it the above remains nothing but intriguing heresay. But he probably got it from somewhere. Now I haven't checked whether the number of working days for the Italian C15th armourer does really work out to 250. Or maybe the 4500 per annum is mentioned in the elusive document. Who knows.

Also we can't be sure what the precise form of this armour for man-at-arms really did entail, but its got to be full plate armour of some form. And even if these armours were being left rough from the hammer, that's still a pretty impressive rate of manufacture. If true. And I guess we can't know whether they were really able to achieve this, even if we had the document. But they probably wouldn't have entered into a legal negotiation with the Duke if they didn't really think they could do it.

So wouldn't we all like to know how these workshops were staffed and organised?

TC

[Sean Powell]

To be fair, modern technology is used to make some incredibly complex and subtle shapes in metal all of the time. Look at a car body panel one day. Even if you had an army of Mac's with hammers and micrometers we could never get the production rate, precision and accuracy that come from a modern press and stamping house. Unfortunately the modern stamping house just isn't setup to do 1-off designs and even if they created functional armor with subtle curves I'm not certain that the modern manufacturing would capture the medieval aesthetic.

Still, with Metal Injection molding, Laser sintered metal 3D printing and some of the new CNC forming one day it may be possible that given enough money a medieval suit could be made with modern fabrication techniques in a very short time-frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNQ40MYwZqw

Sean

[Gustovic]

Still, with Metal Injection molding, Laser sintered metal 3D printing and some of the new CNC forming one day it may be possible that given enough money a medieval suit could be made with modern fabrication techniques in a very short time-frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNQ40MYwZqw

Sean

Let´s hope tht that day never comes =).

[Johann ColdIron]

I just found this thread and it's cheered me up no end on what otherwise is a pretty boring office day. You guys are too funny. I avoided the initial phase of p. 1 outrage, as Mac previously told me about this eBay business. I had no idea that the AA had declared war on this poor garbage peddler. Hilarious.

On the subject of rate of production though, I am reminded of an unsourced reference published in the Park Lane Arms Fair catalogue a while ago.... (from Dobson, C., 'Saint George's Workforce', Park Lane Arms Fair 19 (2002), pp. 9-13):

'In 1452, Cicco Simonetta approached the Duke of Milan, Francesco Sforza, on behalf of a consortium of three armourers. he stated that each of the three could undertake to supply six armours for a man-at-arms daily. That is a total of eighteen armours daily, or 4500 armours per annum, from just one consortium.'

Chris has in the past done some work in Italian civic archives, and perhaps this comes from the Archivio di Stato in Milan, but if it does the document is not given in the references. That's a bit of a shame, as without it the above remains nothing but intriguing heresay. But he probably got it from somewhere. Now I haven't checked whether the number of working days for the Italian C15th armourer does really work out to 250. Or maybe the 4500 per annum is mentioned in the elusive document. Who knows.

Also we can't be sure what the precise form of this armour for man-at-arms really did entail, but its got to be full plate armour of some form. And even if these armours were being left rough from the hammer, that's still a pretty impressive rate of manufacture. If true. And I guess we can't know whether they were really able to achieve this, even if we had the document. But they probably wouldn't have entered into a legal negotiation with the Duke if they didn't really think they could do it.

So wouldn't we all like to know how these workshops were staffed and organised?

TC

Interesting stats Mr. Capwell! It would indeed be interesting to know how many folks they brought to bear for production levels like that.

When recreating their methods for non-Princely armour it is important to channel a "get it done" mentality. After looking at many of Wades pieces it becomes obvious that they did not sweat the small stuff like running out of material when turning hems or misplaced chisel marks. Things a modern client is likely to balk at when writing a check. But for them they were completing the piece- because their client needs 10,000 of them, NOW. Perfect is not part of the contract!

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Heroic Armor of the Italian Renaissance, page 23, note 43. Note last sentence of paragraph two.

[Kristoffer]

James, playing nicely means that you share what we who are not privileged with a nice library are unable to read up on.

[Mac]

The Met's old publications are online. (Yea for them!) The one James cites is here. https://books.google.com/books?id=PteVl ... &q&f=false

Mac

[Keegan Ingrassia]

According to the contract Matteo was to engage the service of his coworkers: one or two polishers; an engraver (etcher); two gilders - one working in gold leaf and the other in powdered gold; four master armorers, the first for making helmets, the second for body armor, mostly cuirasses, the third for arms, and the fourth for gauntlets; plus any additional assistants necessary to make an armor "in one day."

Good Lord...

[Ernst]

Gerhard recently sent me a copy of John Muendel, The Manufacture of the Skullcap (Cervelliera) in the Florentine Countryside during the Age of Dante and the Problem of Identifying Michael Scot as Its Inventor. This gives manufacture rates for one of the simplest pieces of plate armor.

Thus, in a contract prior to 22 August Tura sold the company 250 cervelliere at approximately 6 soldi, 10 denari for each three-pound cap to be produced at a rate of fifty every fifteen days between 14 June and 1 September 1297.²¹ On 22 August, before this contract had expired, he peddled another 250 skullcaps of the same weight and approximately the same price (6 soldi, 11 denari), but now to be manufactured at the rate of four helmets a day rather than the original 3.3.²² On the same day, Negozzino di Serraglio of the popolo of San Andrea a Cascia promised to make 275 cervelliere under the same specifications. He was, however, given some 282 days to complete the job, amounting to approximately one helmet a day.²³ On 27 August Tieri, called Franza, di Guglielmo and his son Gozzo pledged to shape 100 three-pound skullcaps in approximately sixty days,²⁴ while on 19 November Migliore di Orlando committed to form 150 caps of the same weight before 1 February 1298.²⁵ Both were producing two helmets a day at 7 soldi apiece.

[Gustovic]

Gerhard recently sent me a copy of John Muendel, The Manufacture of the Skullcap (Cervelliera) in the Florentine Countryside during the Age of Dante and the Problem of Identifying Michael Scot as Its Inventor. This gives manufacture rates for one of the simplest pieces of plate armor.

Thus, in a contract prior to 22 August Tura sold the company 250 cervelliere at approximately 6 soldi, 10 denari for each three-pound cap to be produced at a rate of fifty every fifteen days between 14 June and 1 September 1297.²¹ On 22 August, before this contract had expired, he peddled another 250 skullcaps of the same weight and approximately the same price (6 soldi, 11 denari), but now to be manufactured at the rate of four helmets a day rather than the original 3.3.²² On the same day, Negozzino di Serraglio of the popolo of San Andrea a Cascia promised to make 275 cervelliere under the same specifications. He was, however, given some 282 days to complete the job, amounting to approximately one helmet a day.²³ On 27 August Tieri, called Franza, di Guglielmo and his son Gozzo pledged to shape 100 three-pound skullcaps in approximately sixty days,²⁴ while on 19 November Migliore di Orlando committed to form 150 caps of the same weight before 1 February 1298.²⁵ Both were producing two helmets a day at 7 soldi apiece.

Why don´t we have more of this? We should have thread about the cost of armour, how many people were involved nd how much time it took.

Like I heard that in the heyday Milan´s workshops could churn out 20.000 armours a week (or someting crazy like that).