My armour project - Italian 15th C

[Ian BB]

Hey everyone,

It's been years since I made anything metal related but I've got the opportunity to again now.

These are a pair of legs I've I started ages ago and never got round to finishing them, pretty happy with the result although they aren't exactly historically accurate they look okay. One thing I am very happy with was grinding down the domed rivets into a more pleasing flatter shape, the rivets I bought were are close as I could find but I've ground them into a new shape and that looks far more accurate.

Next is strapping but I've never really got that far before so some learning to do there.

Comments very welcome,


This shows the modified rivet shape

[Mac]

It's good to see someone make cuisses that are as tall and slim as the real ones.

Bravo!

Mac

[Ian BB]

It's good to see someone make cuisses that are as tall and slim as the real ones.

Bravo!

Mac

Cheers Mac, I'll take some better pictures later.

[Ian BB]

WIP on the gauntlets.

If Mac remembers about 8 years ago I asked how to do these on the armsandarmourforum - wasn't able to finish them then but now it's going much better.

[Mac]

If Mac remembers about 8 years ago I asked how to do these on the armsandarmourforum - wasn't able to finish them then but now it's going much better.

Eight years ago is just a distant blur, but I hope I gave you useful and courteous advise.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I have a question regarding your cuisses. They go up nice and high as they should. Have you tried wearing them with braies and hosen? Is there any risk getting your "equipment" in trouble because of them?

[Ian BB]

If Mac remembers about 8 years ago I asked how to do these on the armsandarmourforum - wasn't able to finish them then but now it's going much better.

Eight years ago is just a distant blur, but I hope I gave you useful and courteous advise.

Mac

It was, you pointed out I'd made the right hand completely wrong so I had to ditch that and make them new.

I have a question regarding your cuisses. They go up nice and high as they should. Have you tried wearing them with braies and hosen? Is there any risk getting your "equipment" in trouble because of them?

Honestly I don't know yet, they sit about as high as armour I've seen in museums. I think it's about how well I do the strapping and where. Food for thought though.

[Mac]

It was, you pointed out I'd made the right hand completely wrong so I had to ditch that and make them new.

Oh dear...

Mac

[Mac]

I have a question regarding your cuisses. They go up nice and high as they should. Have you tried wearing them with braies and hosen? Is there any risk getting your "equipment" in trouble because of them?

As far as I can tell, the problem is usually that the modern sports cup gets in the way, and without the cup everything is fine. When I've worn high legs around the shop there have been on unfortunate pinching incidents. Since you probably want (need) to have some sort of cup if you are participating in some martial game, I recommend choosing one that's narrow and deep, rather than one that's wide and shallow.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I got thinking about this since I am currently making braies and hosen for my new kit to come and they allow things to hang somewhat freer then modern underwear that I have used until now. I have avoided high cuisses because of interferance issues with cups but as you say Mac, it might be the cup that is the problem.

Going armoured codpiece might be the answer..

[Ian BB]

I might change the plans with all this armour. I was going to make all the metal then do all the strapping. I might do the strapping straight away as I'd hate to get to the end and find some parts wont work.

[Mac]

I got thinking about this since I am currently making braies and hosen for my new kit to come and they allow things to hang somewhat freer then modern underwear that I have used until now. I have avoided high cuisses because of interferance issues with cups but as you say Mac, it might be the cup that is the problem.

Have a look at my Pinterest page on braies. https://www.pinterest.com/macs_shop/underwear/ So far as I can tell, through study and reconstruction, non-supportive underpants were pretty old fashioned by the middle of the 14th C. Braies from the late 14th through the 16th centuries should hold the boys up as well as (or better than) modern jockey shorts.

Mac

[Mac]

I might change the plans with all this armour. I was going to make all the metal then do all the strapping. I might do the strapping straight away as I'd hate to get to the end and find some parts wont work.

It's not a bad idea to strap stuff out temporarily. If you're careful about your riveting (or just use bolts) you can probably use the same straps again later.

Do you intend to put the medial ends of the upper cuisse lames on leather? Ie. two leathers and a sliding rivet.

Like this....

I like to think of the upper end of such a cuisse as having a build in tasset.

Mac

[tiredWeasel]

Didn't the Italians favour the mail skirt? That might negate the need for a codpiece.

[Ian BB]

I think it was the German's who did. I thought that part was protected by slightly lower breastplate tassets... could be wrong.

[Scott Martin]

Codpiece.

Lots of them were "lost" in the Victorian era, but look at Henry VII's armour for the field of cloth of gold. One suit has a massive (but flat) codpiece and the suit with the tonnlet is the other contemporary solution.

Note that if you do the tonnlet way, many had detachable panels front and back so you could sit in a saddle

Scott

[Ckanite]

Codpiece.

Lots of them were "lost" in the Victorian era, but look at Henry VII's armour for the field of cloth of gold. One suit has a massive (but flat) codpiece and the suit with the tonnlet is the other contemporary solution.

Note that if you do the tonnlet way, many had detachable panels front and back so you could sit in a saddle

Scott

Yeah.. lost... it's really a shame that they couldn't handle very simple things like the idea of someone not wanting to get their nuts smashed in on the field of battle...

[Mac]

I don't think you'll find any Italian armored codpieces in the 15th C. Although it looks like a few Germans were starting to embrace the idea. https://www.pinterest.com/tbiliter/15th ... od-pieces/

It seems like the typical Italian solution was to have two layers of mail skirt, one of which attached to the fauld. Sometimes that attached layer went all the way around, and other times it's just front and center.

Mac

[Sean M]

Foot combat armour in 15th century Italy would be a great project for someone with an academic bent. We know that from at least the 1320s until the 17th century, armour was configured differently for different kinds of fighting, and we know that effigies just represent one possible configuration, but I don't know so much about what Italians (or foreigners in Italian harness) added, removed, and swapped out to do arms on foot.

Our 'vision' of 15th century Italian armour is usually configured for combat with heavy lances on horseback, but Italians fought in other ways too.

They had pointed faulds in 14th century Florence (Pistoia Altarpiece) but I don't know much about armour after 1410. I suspect that close paunches (mail shorts) were not just an English thing.

[Gary Gibson]

It seems like the typical Italian solution was to have two layers of mail skirt, one of which attached to the fauld. Sometimes that attached layer went all the way around, and other times it's just front and center.

Mac

I have been wondering about solutions for having two layers of mail skirt in 15 C. Italian harnesses, especially where a mail paunce (or similar arrangement w/o a habergeon) is utilized.

Do you have additional information (or links, references I could investigate) on mail skirts attached to faulds ?

[Ckanite]

It seems like the typical Italian solution was to have two layers of mail skirt, one of which attached to the fauld. Sometimes that attached layer went all the way around, and other times it's just front and center.

Mac

I have been wondering about solutions for having two layers of mail skirt in 15 C. Italian harnesses, especially where a mail paunce (or similar arrangement w/o a habergeon) is utilized.

Do you have additional information (or links, references I could investigate) on mail skirts attached to faulds ?

If I remember correctly, we had a bit of a discussion on this about a year or a year and a half ago.... Can't find it though...

[Tom B.]

It seems like the typical Italian solution was to have two layers of mail skirt, one of which attached to the fauld. Sometimes that attached layer went all the way around, and other times it's just front and center.

Mac

I have been wondering about solutions for having two layers of mail skirt in 15 C. Italian harnesses, especially where a mail paunce (or similar arrangement w/o a habergeon) is utilized.

Do you have additional information (or links, references I could investigate) on mail skirts attached to faulds ?

Look here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=168360&p=2564022&#p2564022

[Mac]

Do you have additional information (or links, references I could investigate) on mail skirts attached to faulds ?

Here are some pics that address the question.

This is the armor of Ulrich IX von Matsch at Churburg. It retains a short skirt of mail which is attached directly to holes in the fauld.



The "Avant" armor in Glasgow has lost it's mail skirt, but we can see the (modern but correct) leather strip to which the mail would have been sewn.



The "B1" armor from S.Maria delle Grazie di Curtatone shows the characteristic holes where the mail attaching strip would have been riveted.



This cuirasse in the museum at Le Landeron retains a mail fringe attached to its fauld. It is displayed with another layer of mail as well.



This armor is "B3" from S.Maria delle Grazie di Curtatone. It retains a patch of mail between the tassets.



...as does B4 from the same collection.



I'll see about gathering up some examples from art as well, but for now, here's the Duke of Urbino



Mac

[Mac]

St George with two layers of mail.



...and another.



Here the artist has not bothered to put all the mail detail into his preliminary sketch, but we clearly have the short skirt attached to the fauld and another, longer skirt below that. The longer skirt is split for riding. This seems to be an Italian thing.



Mac

[Gary Gibson]

Wonderful! Thank you Mac for the pictures & information and Ckanite/Tom for the discussion link. As I have read on this forum before, the more you look at extent armour, art, effigies... the more you see (especially with a few pointers from you folks)!

This is a really neat solution for the outer / second layer covering the groin/thigh/rear that I suspect works well for an armour used both on foot and for equestrian combat.

Is there a preferred method for attaching the mail skirt to the lower fauld (through holes like the CH18 harness or sewn to a leather strip like the Avant harness) for a reconstruction harness that will see duty in both on foot martial arts and mounted/jousting contexts ?

[Mac]

Is there a preferred method for attaching the mail skirt to the lower fauld (through holes like the CH18 harness or sewn to a leather strip like the Avant harness) for a reconstruction harness that will see duty in both on foot martial arts and mounted/jousting contexts ?

If we can draw a meaningful conclusion from the rather small number of 15th C Italian armors that survive, then attaching the mail to an internal leather (or fabric) strip is the hands down winner.

I should point out that my description of how the mail is attached to CH 18 is misleading. The rings do not pass through the plates, but rather are sewn to the insides by a running stitch of wire. I should have been more careful when I wrote that.

Mac

[Sean M]

Its interesting to see how a feature from my period developed into the 15th century (those fringes at the knee were very practical back before the knee was articulated on lames with a demi-greave to stop a gap appearing between knee and greave, and they appear at Pistoia, but I don't think they appeared at the waist in my time ... one skirt of mail, but not two).

Mac, do you mean the CH 19 Ulrich von Matsch 'giant' armour? I wish I had the money for a catalogue of the Churburg armour, but I just have Carlo's selection of 'important details.' I don't remember surviving mail in the CH 18 'picket fence armet' armour.

[Mac]

Yes, I meant the "Big Ulrich" armor.

Mac

[Ernst]

To add to the visual references, the 1407 Gonzaga inventory includes,
8 Viginti nouem panzerie azalis.
9 Viginti octo pancerie ferri.
10 Viginti falde azalis.
11 Quatuordecim falde ferri.
......
14 Tres Brache azalis.
------------
8 Twenty-nine steel paunces
9 Twenty-eight iron paunces
10 Twenty steel faulds
11 Fourteen iron faulds
......
14 Three steel brayettes.

In the 1542 inventory,
83 E piu una falda de maglia qual'e atachata al suprascritto corsaletto ...
------------
83 Also a mail fauld which is attached to the above written corsalet ...

So it seems that the mail skirts which are attached to the plate faulds are also called faulds, while the separate skirt of mail is a paunce, and mail shorts are brayettes.

[Ernst]

Is there a preferred method for attaching the mail skirt to the lower fauld (through holes like the CH18 harness or sewn to a leather strip like the Avant harness) for a reconstruction harness that will see duty in both on foot martial arts and mounted/jousting contexts ?

If we can draw a meaningful conclusion from the rather small number of 15th C Italian armors that survive, then attaching the mail to an internal leather (or fabric) strip is the hands down winner.

I should point out that my description of how the mail is attached to CH 18 is misleading. The rings do not pass through the plates, but rather are sewn to the insides by a running stitch of wire. I should have been more careful when I wrote that.

Mac

I believe the mail sabatons on the Avant harness are similarly attached, with a wire not unlike that found in a spiral-bound notebook. Image from Dupras' thesis -

[Sean M]

I am pretty sure that in Italian as in French, a pancerone/panzerone/panchire is a shirt of mail not a skirt of mail. English seems to be the outlier. Dictionaries can be misleading, because Italian dictionaries tend to be written by 'literature people' who focus on belles lettres not merchants' records, but if you read enough 14th and 15th century texts it becomes clear.

I would translate brache azalis literally: steel breeches.

[Ernst]

Sean, I'm following Mann's translation in this, but you've spent quite a bit of time in Italian documents and might well be correct. I find that contrasting the various items in a singular inventory introduces classifications we might not well understand.

[Sean M]

I never thought that those rings on the Avant armour could be a "whip stitch" of wire instead of closed rings! That would make it easier to remove the mail sabatons from the greaves for cleaning.

Sean, I'm following Mann's translation in this, but you've spent quite a bit of time in Italian documents and might well be correct. I find that contrasting the various items in a singular inventory introduces classifications we might not well understand.

Latin brache and French brayette are two words I don't encounter much, so I don't feel strongly about how to translate them. They might be full breeches or just a flap.

But pansiere/panchiere/pancerone/panzerone is one of my pet peeves, because the dictionaries get stuck on the etymology (paunch-er) and don't look closely enough at usage.

Innsbruck has a wonderful collection of Italian dictionaries, but for armour they are more useful as a collection of slips than for definitions. The DMF is better, because their entry for PANSIÈRE quotes Jean le Bel who mentions "the haubergeons, which these days they call panchires, ..." and Hemricourt's rant that kids these days are showing up to work without coat armours and crested helms but just a coat of iron called a panchire and a jupon of fustian.

...les haubergons, que on appelle maintenant panchieres, les juppes de wanbisons et les chapeaulx de fer sont venuz en avant (LE BEL, Chron. V.D., t.1, 1352-1356, 127). ...cascons est armeis d'unne cotte de fier appelée panchire (HEMRICOURT, Guerres Awans B., c.1398, 40)

This forum does not make it easy to link to, because of the accent, but just paste the following into your browser

Code: Select all

http://www.atilf.fr/dmf/definition/PANSIÈRE

Now, the DMF takes those passages and defines pansiére as "Pièce d'armure destinée à couvrir et à protéger le ventre." That seems to be the etymology, but a coat or a haubergeon covers a lot more than the belly (ventre), and skirt and shirt have the same etymology without meaning the same thing. I am happy when 14th century people define everyday words for me!

[Mac]

I believe the mail sabatons on the Avant harness are similarly attached, with a wire not unlike that found in a spiral-bound notebook. Image from Dupras' thesis -

The mail fringes below the knees of the B1 armor in Curtatone do Mantova are attached that way as well.

These are both applications where one needs the mail to be in the same as the supporting plate or just beyond that plane. In the case of skirts, one wants the mail to be in the inside so as not to foul the tassets.

Mac

[Sean M]

On the pancerone question, I remembered a clear Italian source which I can cite. Salvatore Battaglia's gigantic dictionary of Italian quotes a 14th century Italian version of the story of Artaxerxes killing his chiliarch Artabanus. As the story goes, Artaxerxes realized that Artabanus had killed his father, so he held a review of troops then told Artabanus "my body armour is too small, could I try yours on?"

Giustino Volgar., 66: Il re si finse avere corto panzerone e disse ad Artabano che voleva cambiare con lui.
{(Sec. XIV) Delle istorie di Giustino abbreviatore di Trogo Pompeio, volgarizzamento del buon secolo, a cura di L. Calori, Bolgna, 1880.}

Now, the Latin says "brevis lorica" and the Italian translation says "corto panzerone." There are quite a few paintings of that story from late 14th century Italy and France, and they let us see exactly what they thought those phrases referred to:



(This particular painting comes from BNF Arsenal 5193 (Paris, 1412) but there are many others on MM or in the arming garments II thread).

Sorry from distracting further from this practical thread, but I can't resist being scholarly!