Churburg breast - mystery rivets

[Kristoffer]

So, this breast has a third rivet up by the shoulder and on every picture the strap end is tucked in right where this rivet is.

Are there any inside pictures or has anyone handled this piece? It is tempting to believe there is some sort of pin or similar to hold the strap end in place.

IMG_20180115_233651.jpg (29.49 KiB) Viewed 653 times

[Galileo]

Is it a strap end or a y-strap?

[Kristoffer]

It is the strap end.

[Signo]

That rivet is different from the other 2, it may have been added later, the strap to me is a Y strap, and in my opinion, another hole was made to put a wider Y, maybe because the owner found it more comfortable.

[Mac]

I've worried about this one for decades. A look at the back would tell us a lot, but I've never seen one.

I'm pretty sure that what we are seeing is this....
--The buckles are mounted on leather tabs that get wider as they pass behind the breast... indeed, just like the ones we can see on the plackart.
--These widened ends are fastened to the breast by the two dome headed rivets.
--The end of the straps (having passed through the buckles) tuck behind the breast. This is only to make a tidy presentation.

In this view, we can see that the (wearer's) left strap end is only loosely tucked in behind the breast. This argues against any internal restraint for the end.



This all leaves the third rivet without a function.

I think we have to conclude that while the current arrangement may well be a working life configuration, it is probably not the original one. The three rivets may once have held a broad strap, like what we see on the covered breastplate in Munich.




When I make early breasts, I usually use broad straps (provided with internal or external plates) and loose pin fasteners to attach the back defenses.

There are plenty of examples of broad, armored straps in art. I'll post some more if I can find them online.





Mac

[Kristoffer]

Here is a link to a front, side and back view:

https://pin.it/olvlg63xkjfgyl

[Kristoffer]

Looking at the backplate, the rivets are further apart then on the front but there is only two of them. The wide strap is very plausible but I will never stop being annoyed at this before I get to see the inside I think.

[Tom B.]

Mac's idea about the three rivets possibly being for a Munich breast plate style broad strap with plates is exactly the same conclusion I have arrived at.
I gathered some photos to post to your Facebook thread but never got around to it.

[Nils Mandel]

Just as an Idea:

The two domed rivets holding a broad strap for the buckle as mentioned before.

The remaining smaller rivet belongs to an inner mushroom where you can fix the end of the backplate-strap with a keyhole. So you can get the end of the strap out of the way and it don´t peep out under the plackart????

[Christian Wiedner]

Just as an Idea:

The two domed rivets holding a broad strap for the buckle as mentioned before.

The remaining smaller rivet belongs to an inner mushroom where you can fix the end of the backplate-strap with a keyhole. So you can get the end of the strap out of the way and it don´t peep out under the plackart????

But then we should see a slit/hole on the bent strap end on Macs picture

[Marshal]

So if it's just holding a broad strap, why is it so much smaller/flatter-headed than the others? Were they replacements for original rivets which were larger/domed? Are they the originals and the larger/domed ones are later replacements? If so why the regularity of which ones are replaced?

[Mac]

So if it's just holding a broad strap, why is it so much smaller/flatter-headed than the others? Were they replacements for original rivets which were larger/domed? Are they the originals and the larger/domed ones are later replacements? If so why the regularity of which ones are replaced?

Let me see if I can clarify what I meant.

--I think that the most likely thing is that the buckles and leather mounting tabs on the breast are not original.
--The original strap would have been wide enough to require three rivets on each shoulder.
--At some point (probably in its working life), those wide straps were removed, and the current buckles and mounting tabs were attached.
--These new mounting tabs use two rivets.
--The third rivet is left over from the original scheme.
--The new rivets are dome heads, and they are peened up on the inside.
--The original rivets were probably flat heads, and were peened up on the outside.


Mac

[Mac]

A thing I'm worried about now, is why the shoulder straps are so ridiculously long. This side view seems to show that the straps extend about 6" (150mm) past where they need to.



Why would anyone make them so long? No one needs more than a couple of inches of leather extending beyond the buckles, and it's not like one can really expect all that extra length to lie neatly and comfortably under the breastplate.

I'm inclined to conclude that the current shoulder straps were installed after the working life of the armor.

Mac

[Kristoffer]

A crazy idea would be that the breast straps crossed from the shoulder to the opposite side under the arm to allow the breast to be worn without the back and the extra holes were for connecting the backplate.

Not sure if a setup like that ever existed..

[Mac]

A crazy idea would be that the breast straps crossed from the shoulder to the opposite side under the arm to allow the breast to be worn without the back and the extra holes were for connecting the backplate.

Not sure if a setup like that ever existed..

This breast may well be earlier than the back, waist lames, and skirts. It may originally have been worn without any back defense, or perhaps with "saloon doors" hinged to the sides. If so, then some sort of crossed strap arrangement might have originally been supplied.

On the other hand, the current extra-long straps that I am worried about are mounted to the backplate. Am I misunderstanding you?

Mac

[Kristoffer]

I was thinking that they could have cut off the straps under the arm and riveted the ends to the backplate at some point.

[Mac]

I was thinking that they could have cut off the straps under the arm and riveted the ends to the backplate at some point.

OK, I see what you are getting at.

Mac