ok, as the end is in sight for my current armour project, i'm looking forward to the next project; does anybody have some sources, online and/or books, to get me started in researching the kit for a swiss (pikeman, or other) in service to gustav? ...
also, would this persona be inappropriate, or too late, to "fit in" at a pas?
thanks,
bela
swiss pikeman
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The Flemish were exceptionally mercantile class, and it seemed to be fairly common for their burghers to fight in tournaments. Are you saying the Swiss never did the same?
As for what you should look like, if you can't find something straight out of the cantons, look to Burgundy, the Holy Roman Empire, or the Low Countries for fashion ideas. The Swiss definitely had their own style, but these might get you into the right ballpark.
Gaston
As for what you should look like, if you can't find something straight out of the cantons, look to Burgundy, the Holy Roman Empire, or the Low Countries for fashion ideas. The Swiss definitely had their own style, but these might get you into the right ballpark.
Gaston
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Hi Clermont,
OK, looking at this rationaly, while Swiss nobles (yes, there were a precious few with almost no power whatsoever) might possibly take part in a Pas, there is no logical reason for a Swiss pikeman to be there, the fellow would be off herding cows, goats, or working in a shop in a town.
While Flemish "Burghers" did orgainize their own tournaments for sport, incorporating the middle class rather than the nobility, the participants had enough wealth to own all the appropriate paraphenalia for such an endevour. In short, they were bloody rich, they ate like nobility, they dressed like nobility, and wishing to actually be noble, and they 'aped their betters'. Often, they would marry daughters with huge dowerys to money poor 'gentry', so they could have the satisfaction of having little noble grandchildren.
Or they would go the route of Chastelaine and have their wealthy parents kit them out like a gentleman, come up with a fake pedigree, and truck them off to court after educating them, so they could function as minor beurocrats in the Burgundian government, and be accepted as 'gentlemen' of some minor status.
It is the wildest fantasy to imagine a pikeman at a pas, participating. The other participants wouldn't stand for it, the Heralds would never have accepted their entry into the lists, and the fellow couldn't afford the 'nail money', the equipment, or have the required 'four quarterings' for participation.
I post frankly on the subject as this is the authenticity board. the supposition put forward by Clermont is a nice little fantasy, but the likelyhood of such an occurance - especially in the 15th century is about the same as the fellow suddenly gaining the ability to shite golden turds one morning.
I support your endevour Bella, wholeheartedly and without reservation. You could do a really bang up, first rate job of a Swiss pikeman if you set your mind to it. In fact, you could put many 'lords' to shame with highly authentic equipment that won't bankrupt you, or be beyond your ability to make or trade for. You have much more of a place in the spirit of what is supposed to be going on than many who chose obscure personas out of time or place - no matter how well done. You will be far and away above those who seek no better than generi-celt armour and hockey gloves.
A reasonable place to start, with pictures that are actually accurate, would be "The Swiss at War 1300 - 1500", by Osprey (not all Osprey plates are as well done as these are)
BTW - which "gustav" are you refering to? I am making a presumption you are interested in the 'classical' Swiss pikeman of 1400 - 1520. Post that date, it really is getting outside the bounds of a 'pas' timewise. After 1560, the fellow would start to look like he belonged in the English Civil War rather than the Middle Ages or Renaissance. The actual tourneys themselves rapidly degrade in quality.
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Bob R.
OK, looking at this rationaly, while Swiss nobles (yes, there were a precious few with almost no power whatsoever) might possibly take part in a Pas, there is no logical reason for a Swiss pikeman to be there, the fellow would be off herding cows, goats, or working in a shop in a town.
While Flemish "Burghers" did orgainize their own tournaments for sport, incorporating the middle class rather than the nobility, the participants had enough wealth to own all the appropriate paraphenalia for such an endevour. In short, they were bloody rich, they ate like nobility, they dressed like nobility, and wishing to actually be noble, and they 'aped their betters'. Often, they would marry daughters with huge dowerys to money poor 'gentry', so they could have the satisfaction of having little noble grandchildren.
Or they would go the route of Chastelaine and have their wealthy parents kit them out like a gentleman, come up with a fake pedigree, and truck them off to court after educating them, so they could function as minor beurocrats in the Burgundian government, and be accepted as 'gentlemen' of some minor status.
It is the wildest fantasy to imagine a pikeman at a pas, participating. The other participants wouldn't stand for it, the Heralds would never have accepted their entry into the lists, and the fellow couldn't afford the 'nail money', the equipment, or have the required 'four quarterings' for participation.
I post frankly on the subject as this is the authenticity board. the supposition put forward by Clermont is a nice little fantasy, but the likelyhood of such an occurance - especially in the 15th century is about the same as the fellow suddenly gaining the ability to shite golden turds one morning.
I support your endevour Bella, wholeheartedly and without reservation. You could do a really bang up, first rate job of a Swiss pikeman if you set your mind to it. In fact, you could put many 'lords' to shame with highly authentic equipment that won't bankrupt you, or be beyond your ability to make or trade for. You have much more of a place in the spirit of what is supposed to be going on than many who chose obscure personas out of time or place - no matter how well done. You will be far and away above those who seek no better than generi-celt armour and hockey gloves.
A reasonable place to start, with pictures that are actually accurate, would be "The Swiss at War 1300 - 1500", by Osprey (not all Osprey plates are as well done as these are)
BTW - which "gustav" are you refering to? I am making a presumption you are interested in the 'classical' Swiss pikeman of 1400 - 1520. Post that date, it really is getting outside the bounds of a 'pas' timewise. After 1560, the fellow would start to look like he belonged in the English Civil War rather than the Middle Ages or Renaissance. The actual tourneys themselves rapidly degrade in quality.
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Bob R.
It is true that a pikeman wouldn't fit in at a pas as a participant.
It is also good to remember that the pikeman also shared some armor with the noblemen who would be participating in a pas.
So, depending on what type of armor you chose to wear, you may be able to fit in to a pas without having to change your kit much.
For example, many front-rank pikemen had gothic plate from ankle to helmet. They often shunned certain pieces, such as sabatons and bevors, for convenience's sake.
Other pikemen wore less armor, depending on their place in the ranks and their ability to afford good armor. But, certain pieces, such as a sallet, could still be used for a pas-worthy harness.
Good luck!
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All bleeding eventually stops.
It is also good to remember that the pikeman also shared some armor with the noblemen who would be participating in a pas.
So, depending on what type of armor you chose to wear, you may be able to fit in to a pas without having to change your kit much.
For example, many front-rank pikemen had gothic plate from ankle to helmet. They often shunned certain pieces, such as sabatons and bevors, for convenience's sake.
Other pikemen wore less armor, depending on their place in the ranks and their ability to afford good armor. But, certain pieces, such as a sallet, could still be used for a pas-worthy harness.
Good luck!
------------------
All bleeding eventually stops.