Does anyone have any pictures of 15th or 16th century Persian armour scanned on a web site or that they can email me?
I was looking at pictures the other night but want to get more information.
Also,
From the illuminations I was examining the other night, it looked like several folks were wearing bauzbands (I know I didn't spell that right, what I'm referring to is the one piece forearm and elbow protector), the ones I saw seemed to be leather, due to the amount of tooling on them, but all of the armour was colored the same, including the helms (excluding some decorative brass work on the helms). Anyone know what materials were used in Persian armour, in the helms, in the drape that falls from the helm over the shoulders, and in the bauzbands?
I was surprised at how little mail was shown, all though it may have been hidden by the over coats that everyone was wearing.
Shields. The shields I saw seemed to be round, but I was told there were some examples of other shapes. Any information on that would be interesting. Also most of the shields I saw were shown front on, some seemed to be very similar to a European round with a shield boss, from this view. However, the couple that were shown in side view were broad, shallow cones, was that an artistic convention or is that the shape that ways used? In that case were the shields some sort of hide over a wooden frame rather than wood shields?
Asbjorn
15th or 16th Century Persian questions and anyone have pics?
Moderator: Glen K
-
Asbjorn Johansen
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1699
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Aldan PA
-
FrauHirsch
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4520
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: San Diego, CA, USA
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Asbjorn Johansen:
From the illuminations I was examining the other night, it looked like several folks were wearing bauzbands (I know I didn't spell that right, what I'm referring to is the one piece forearm and elbow protector), the ones I saw seemed to be leather, due to the amount of tooling on them, but all of the armour was colored the same, Asbjorn</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The extant ones I've seen in museums are actually metal, especially by the 16th c. The decoration is inlaid and applied metalwork combined with bluing and such. They are highly ornate.
The armor in the middle east was often covered by a coat as an outer layer. The metal gets really hot in the sun without the cover.
Sir Rustam who is now in An Tir has a Persian persona that is pretty well researched, but I don't have his contact info since he moved from Caid a few months ago.
Most of my research has been in 16th c Ottoman.
Juliana
From the illuminations I was examining the other night, it looked like several folks were wearing bauzbands (I know I didn't spell that right, what I'm referring to is the one piece forearm and elbow protector), the ones I saw seemed to be leather, due to the amount of tooling on them, but all of the armour was colored the same, Asbjorn</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The extant ones I've seen in museums are actually metal, especially by the 16th c. The decoration is inlaid and applied metalwork combined with bluing and such. They are highly ornate.
The armor in the middle east was often covered by a coat as an outer layer. The metal gets really hot in the sun without the cover.
Sir Rustam who is now in An Tir has a Persian persona that is pretty well researched, but I don't have his contact info since he moved from Caid a few months ago.
Most of my research has been in 16th c Ottoman.
Juliana
-
Norman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
- Contact:
Have you looked at my armour history site? (see URLs at my sig)
Not much in the way of photos but alot of drawings.
The other place to look is to go to "Red Kaganate" (URL at my sig) and follow the "Resource Links". There's a Crimean site in russian that has lotsa photos.
There is no evidence of leather Bazubands.
In the East steel was far more decorated than common in Europe until late period (but then -- this is late in period too).
The "tooling" you saw is quite probably metal decoration.
(I should also note that according to H.R.Robinson etching the way it was done in Europe was not done until the 19th century souvenir armour -- the decoration was chasing and the use of inlay metals).
Whatelse --
Shields:
by that period, I think they were all round.
Earlier on, you have teardrop shields and teardrop shields with a blunt point.
The strapping is most usually done thusly:
<pre>
o o
\ /
| |
/ \
o o
</pre>
The "o" is the position of a bolt.
There's a ring at the end of the bolt and the bolt is free rotating (it's commonly a rivet head on the outside of the shield).
The lines represent leather straps which are attached to the rings. One strap on the left, the other on the right.
There's a leather pillow in the center.
You hold the two straps in your fist and can move the shield by varying the pressure pressure.
This persisted to the end (19th - 20th cent) and there are plenty of shields on ebay that you can see this on in detail (look for Indian or Persian shields - most likely Indian).
Some shields, when they got too big (say past 20" or so) had an extra strap to give arm support. Thusly ("x" indicates the center of the shield):
<pre>
o o o
| | x |
o o o
</pre>
In which case, you still hold the two centre straps the same and pass your forearm through the outer strap.
Shape and Materials -
Yes, they are commonly deep dished.
They were most comonly made of leather or they were made of wicker -- in this case it was either concentric rings or a spiral of wicker which was "woven" together with silk thread. Sometimes, the wicker was covered with leather.
The Boss -- either a center boss or small bosses with each of the bolts that hold the straps going through them.
What else --
The reason you saw less maile than you may have is alot of the maile was hidden as a Kazarghand - layers of maile coats sandwiched between fabric coats and all sewn into one garment, or simply covered by an outer coat.
...
did you see any lamellar?
it was on its way out, but there may have been some.
Coats of plate were also common.
And coats with plates on the outside - at this point begining to form into "disk armour".
Anything else?
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Not much in the way of photos but alot of drawings.
The other place to look is to go to "Red Kaganate" (URL at my sig) and follow the "Resource Links". There's a Crimean site in russian that has lotsa photos.
There is no evidence of leather Bazubands.
In the East steel was far more decorated than common in Europe until late period (but then -- this is late in period too).
The "tooling" you saw is quite probably metal decoration.
(I should also note that according to H.R.Robinson etching the way it was done in Europe was not done until the 19th century souvenir armour -- the decoration was chasing and the use of inlay metals).
Whatelse --
Shields:
by that period, I think they were all round.
Earlier on, you have teardrop shields and teardrop shields with a blunt point.
The strapping is most usually done thusly:
<pre>
o o
\ /
| |
/ \
o o
</pre>
The "o" is the position of a bolt.
There's a ring at the end of the bolt and the bolt is free rotating (it's commonly a rivet head on the outside of the shield).
The lines represent leather straps which are attached to the rings. One strap on the left, the other on the right.
There's a leather pillow in the center.
You hold the two straps in your fist and can move the shield by varying the pressure pressure.
This persisted to the end (19th - 20th cent) and there are plenty of shields on ebay that you can see this on in detail (look for Indian or Persian shields - most likely Indian).
Some shields, when they got too big (say past 20" or so) had an extra strap to give arm support. Thusly ("x" indicates the center of the shield):
<pre>
o o o
| | x |
o o o
</pre>
In which case, you still hold the two centre straps the same and pass your forearm through the outer strap.
Shape and Materials -
Yes, they are commonly deep dished.
They were most comonly made of leather or they were made of wicker -- in this case it was either concentric rings or a spiral of wicker which was "woven" together with silk thread. Sometimes, the wicker was covered with leather.
The Boss -- either a center boss or small bosses with each of the bolts that hold the straps going through them.
What else --
The reason you saw less maile than you may have is alot of the maile was hidden as a Kazarghand - layers of maile coats sandwiched between fabric coats and all sewn into one garment, or simply covered by an outer coat.
...
did you see any lamellar?
it was on its way out, but there may have been some.
Coats of plate were also common.
And coats with plates on the outside - at this point begining to form into "disk armour".
Anything else?
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
-
Asbjorn Johansen
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1699
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Aldan PA
Good information, thanks.
Several of the pictures I was examining (it looked like an illuminated history prepared for a noble person) had helms with drapes that went down and became almost shoulder protection. They all appeared to have a heavy underlayment of fabric, but some looked like they were covered in scale, some in possibly mail, and some couldn’t be sure of. I’m wondering was the drape a part of the shoulder protection?
Were bazubands covered with anything other than etching? Were they ever covered with fabric or leather? How about helms?
Asbjorn
Several of the pictures I was examining (it looked like an illuminated history prepared for a noble person) had helms with drapes that went down and became almost shoulder protection. They all appeared to have a heavy underlayment of fabric, but some looked like they were covered in scale, some in possibly mail, and some couldn’t be sure of. I’m wondering was the drape a part of the shoulder protection?
Were bazubands covered with anything other than etching? Were they ever covered with fabric or leather? How about helms?
Asbjorn
-
Norman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
- Contact:
Substantial Aventails were certainly a big thing.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Several of the pictures I was examining ...had helms with drapes that went down and became almost shoulder protection. They all appeared to have a heavy underlayment of fabric, but some looked like they were covered in scale, some in possibly mail, and some couldn’t be sure of. I’m wondering was the drape a part of the shoulder protection?</font>
Can you scan the images? It's hard to guess what you're looking at.
Often in the iconography things that look like scale to us are realy maile.
Not that I know of.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Were bazubands covered with anything other than etching? Were they ever covered with fabric or leather?</font>
During the crusades Yes. But I don't know if they did this later. I'm not sure.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">How about helms?</font>
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
-
Egfroth
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4577
- Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
- Contact:
How about Ottoman Turkish? I've got some lovely photos of
C16 Ottoman armour from the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, but sadly, no scanner . . .
When I get a scanner (sometime soon, he said hopefully), it'll be different.
------------------
Egfroth
Major Bloodnok, Queen's Forty-Third Deserters (retd.) "Do you know what it's like to be in the thick of a bloody battle, with bullets flying and sabres clashing?"
Ned Seagoon: "No."
Bloodnok: "Pity; I was hoping you could tell me . . ."
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos
[This message has been edited by Egfroth (edited 04-10-2002).]
C16 Ottoman armour from the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, but sadly, no scanner . . .
When I get a scanner (sometime soon, he said hopefully), it'll be different.
------------------
Egfroth
Major Bloodnok, Queen's Forty-Third Deserters (retd.) "Do you know what it's like to be in the thick of a bloody battle, with bullets flying and sabres clashing?"
Ned Seagoon: "No."
Bloodnok: "Pity; I was hoping you could tell me . . ."
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos
[This message has been edited by Egfroth (edited 04-10-2002).]
-
Asbjorn Johansen
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1699
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Aldan PA
I was looking through books at someone else's house on Saturday don't have them handy. I was hoping to find some webbed pictures of Persian manuscripts.
Norman, this should be a golden opportunity for you to advertise the Red Khanate, Roxanne the newly crowned Queen of the East is doing late 15 century Persian for the whole reign. She also wants to fight in Persian armor. A friend of mine made a fairly nice Persian style practice helm for her (with bar grill of course), and is planning a much nicer version for events. I was thinking of making an aventail for the helm, if it could be done in scale. She also could use a nice set of bazubands. I was considering doing a Persian rig myself, so she would have at least one decent looking Persian guard, but I’m not sure if I can afford a new helm and metal bazubands. The rest can be done with armour hidden under decent Persian clothes. I’ll have to keep thinking about it.
Do you know if greaves were worn, or just boots? I couldn’t tell from the pictures.
Asbjorn
Norman, this should be a golden opportunity for you to advertise the Red Khanate, Roxanne the newly crowned Queen of the East is doing late 15 century Persian for the whole reign. She also wants to fight in Persian armor. A friend of mine made a fairly nice Persian style practice helm for her (with bar grill of course), and is planning a much nicer version for events. I was thinking of making an aventail for the helm, if it could be done in scale. She also could use a nice set of bazubands. I was considering doing a Persian rig myself, so she would have at least one decent looking Persian guard, but I’m not sure if I can afford a new helm and metal bazubands. The rest can be done with armour hidden under decent Persian clothes. I’ll have to keep thinking about it.
Do you know if greaves were worn, or just boots? I couldn’t tell from the pictures.
Asbjorn
-
Norman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
- Contact:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Norman, this should be a golden opportunity for you to advertise the Red Khanate, Roxanne the newly crowned Queen of the East is doing late 15 century Persian for the whole reign.</font>
I'm here -- you know about me. You know about the site. Tell all your friends!!!!!
If the queen invites this Khan to an audience I would be happy to attend (assuming scheduling issues -- I'm a Sabbath observer)
...or maybe the queen of the Rus will deign to except an invitation to our poor Khanate.
...course, the local New York group as of today have next to no material possessions.
But maybe a royal invite with a coupla months leeway will inspire them (who wants to make garb solely for fighter practice?)
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Persian style practice helm for her (with bar grill of course)</font>
Hide this with a full face maile aventail!
Maile hundred percent. Lamellar's good too. Scale... I'm iffy on that.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I was thinking of making an aventail for the helm, if it could be done in scale.</font>
That's easy enough.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">She also could use a nice set of bazubands.</font>
What kinda helm d'you have? Maybe it can be adapted. If you can't afford the arm defenses -- hide them too.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I was considering doing a Persian rig myself, so she would have at least one decent looking Persian guard, but I’m not sure if I can afford a new helm and metal bazubands. The rest can be done with armour hidden under decent Persian clothes. I’ll have to keep thinking about it.</font>
Greaves were definitely used in that period. But going without greaves is fine too.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Do you know if greaves were worn, or just boots? I couldn’t tell from the pictures.</font>
Feel free to email me at kaganate(at)mail.ru
(note this is different than in the sig)
BTW: When you say "Persian" you mean Timurid right???
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 04-11-2002).]