Norman Knights

Christophe de Frisselle · Fri Apr 12, 2002 5:20 pm

I'll comment later, but I'll put this before you for comment. The page is not mine, I just found it as I was searching. Some of it goes contrary to what I have learned.

Christophe de Frisselle · Fri Apr 12, 2002 5:30 pm

Oops, forgot something.

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/2187/normans.htm

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Fri Apr 12, 2002 7:05 pm

Interesting. Not a definitive source, but an informative description of how scale armour might have been worn. I think that the representations of mail have been "interpreted", as there are more English examples of forge-welded/riveted mail than scale found in archeaological finds.
I'd like to hear Egfroth's views on this.

Christophe de Frisselle · Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:12 pm

I wrote to the maintainer of the site about the information on that page. Here is the responce.
"the info comes mainly from visits to the Bayeux Museum, the
Musee de l'Armee (Paris), inspiration from a series of articles published in
"la gazette des armes" and research from some of the members of our club
keen on the period. We had some help from a Swedish Wargaming club that has
an outstanding library on the subject."

I'm very curious about this as I have never seen mention or speculation before that the Normans were wearing some kind of scale armour.
I assume it's speculation only based on the way the armour is depicted in the tapestry.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sat Apr 13, 2002 7:24 pm

You might note that many of these sources are French, and the French hold strongly to theories proposed by Violet le Duc. This would be akin to Englishmen hanging to the theories of Samuel Rush Meyrick, another great 19th century student of armor, because he's English. Much of le Duc's work is seen under a more critical microscope outside France. If you have access to Funcken and Funcken's three part series on medieval armor, you can see how skewed some of this thinking might seem. Still, the old Master did a lot of research, and all of his work should not be dismissed out-of-hand. Often, what he drew was a correct rendering, although his interpretaion is open to question. He is also noted for his 'restoration' of both the city of Carcassone and Notre Dame du Paris.

One noted example of controversy is the French held view that the square on the front of the hauberk is not a ventail, but a closure for some type of 'overall'--an Oshkosh hauberk, if you will. While the view in the English speaking world is dismissive (there are other contemporary sources which weigh in for this being an aventail), the French produce sources, such as the 'Vannes Marriage Chest' from the early 12th century, which show the 'hauberk' completely encasing the thighs like a modern pair of pants. Their explanation is that the square closes the front where the wearer stepped into his armor.

I wouldn't place a great deal of trust in this e-site's interpretation, but I would also remember that there was probably greater variation in the details than we will ever be able to prove or disprove.

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Sun Apr 14, 2002 3:09 pm

I note with interest the lack of any live person wearing a reconstruction of this "full mail". In addition, there is little if any archaeological evidence of scale mail or lamellar into the early middle ages. I believe there is one plate found in Ireland.

------------------
<><><> <><><> <><><>
Baldurstrand

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Mon Apr 15, 2002 8:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Buran:
I note with interest the lack of any live person wearing a reconstruction of this "full mail". In addition, there is little if any archaeological evidence of scale mail or lamellar into the early middle ages. I believe there is one plate found in Ireland.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is currently a lively discussion going on among the people who were at the Hastings re-enactment in 2000 (and intend to return in 2006) regarding this armour, which the French refer to as a broigne (French version of Byrnie, brnja etc), but take to mean armour of scales attached to a backing.

Now, there HAVE actually been finds of scales in France dating to the 11th century - I know of three, of which one is at http://www.culture.fr/culture/arcnat/charavines/en/chepay.htm - follow the links via farmer-knights, defence and equipment.

However, the general consensus everywhere (except France, where they still follow Viollet-le-Duc) is that the armour at Hastings was almost all mail. One thing that has contributed to this idea is that the armour in the Bayeux Tapestry is shown using several different conventionalised representations.

For the bib/ventail, see my page http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos//Bib1.html

Christophe de Frisselle · Mon Apr 15, 2002 11:54 pm

That's why I posted. I sources listed by the site mainatiner were European and mostly French, thus in accessable to me as an English only speaker. Not to mention my local library sucks, as they will only inter loan from other libraries in their small regional library system.
I have never read or hear of any armour like this. Scale, yeah, knew about that but not in this style. The scales to me seem to be on the very small side ( about an inch or so square it looks) attached to a garment make in a jumper style.
It doesn't seem like that much of a streach of the imagination to me, having looked at picture of the Tapestry. It's when I think of the construction and wearing such armour(putting it on) that I begin to question it. To me it leaned to the obsurd.
I'd like to thank you all for your input.

guthrothr · Post by **guthrothr** » Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Christophe de Friselle:
That's why I posted. I sources listed by the site mainatiner were European and mostly French, thus in accessable to me as an English only speaker. Not to mention my local library sucks, as they will only inter loan from other libraries in their small regional library system.
I have never read or hear of any armour like this. Scale, yeah, knew about that but not in this style. The scales to me seem to be on the very small side ( about an inch or so square it looks) attached to a garment make in a jumper style.
It doesn't seem like that much of a streach of the imagination to me, having looked at picture of the Tapestry. It's when I think of the construction and wearing such armour(putting it on) that I begin to question it. To me it leaned to the obsurd.
I'd like to thank you all for your input.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi

I'm also involved in the other debate, in fact I'm the one asking the awkward questions. The armour on the site Egfroth lists is starting to look like a very, very early coat-of-plates (early 11thC no less).

I do not like the look of the other site very much however, the author seems confused about terms and actually suggests that when the Roman Empire was overrun, Western Europe forgot how to make iron or steel wire for ringshirts !

Once we get a clear idea of what this stuff is I'll post the details here.

BTW, try running any foreign language websites through altavista/babelfish. The English is a bit strange but with a bit of common sense it can be read.

Guthrothr

------------------
Lets follow a friendlier feeder of Wolves
Lets beat the oar-blades of our shield adorned boat
That sword-bender won't shun me seeking his company
Let's sling our shields aboard and make sail

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Egfroth:
 There is currently a lively discussion going on among the people who were at the Hastings re-enactment in 2000 (and intend to return in 2006) regarding this armour, which
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa, whoa, whoa, it's happening in 2006? First I heard 2005, then 2004, now this? Is that a final date?

Do have the address for the discussion on Hastings? I remember listening in on the one in 2000, wishing I was there. This time, it's different...

Thanks Egfroth!

------------------
<><><> <><><> <><><>
Baldurstrand

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 1:53 am

There has been a certain amount of confusion on this - mainly because after H2K was such a success, English Heritage was talking about doing them every 2 years, but nothing seems to have come f it. There is apparently (Guhroth knows more about this) a smaller scale one every year, but the next BigOne (TM) is likely to be 2006, when October 14 next falls on a Saturday.

You can get onto the discussion group (with full archives) at http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Hastings

------------------
Egfroth

Major Bloodnok, Queen's Forty-Third Deserters (retd.) "Do you know what it's like to be in the thick of a bloody battle, with bullets flying and sabres clashing?"
Ned Seagoon: "No."
Bloodnok: "Pity; I was hoping you could tell me . . ."
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

[This message has been edited by Egfroth (edited 04-17-2002).]

guthrothr · Post by **guthrothr** » Wed Apr 17, 2002 2:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Egfroth:
There has been a certain amount of confusion on this - mainly because after H2K was such a success, English Heritage was talking about doing them every 2 years, but nothing seems to have come f it. There is apparently (Guhroth knows more about this) a smaller scale one every year, but the next BigOne (TM) is likely to be 2006, when October 14 next falls on a Saturday.

You can get onto the discussion group (with full archives) at http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Hastings

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi.

Yes we believe the next BigOne(tm pending) will be 2006, when the 14th falls on a Saturday.

If anyone interested has trouble logging on to the mailing list, contact me and I'll send an invitation.

Guthrothr

------------------
Lets follow a friendlier feeder of Wolves
Lets beat the oar-blades of our shield adorned boat
That sword-bender won't shun me seeking his company
Let's sling our shields aboard and make sail