In order to ride a horse, one must have balance. Balance requires the use of your trunk muscles. Maille is flexable enough for me to maintain my balance. A globose breastplate allows me the use of enough of my trunk muscles that I can maintain my balance. A Milanese two-piece like Chef wears is difficult to ride in, as it only moves certain ways. I've ridden in mine, and I've fallen off in mine. I applaud Chef for doing what I know is difficult, and laugh at Rhys for what he guesses is easy. Let Rhys mount a horse in the same 15th C. armour as Chef wears, and try to keep up with me in my 14th C. kit on a trail ride, and I'm sure his eyes will be opened.
"If the shit don't fit, the ground will you hit" to paraphrase Johnny Cochrane.
Wal-Mart Warrior Speaks Out
Moderator: Glen K
Posted by Galon----------
"Joaquin, as the guy who did exactly as you are doing(back in 1990), I think I should be the one to point something out. I have found that what is left out there is lacking. All 3 of the major live steel groups(AE, ECS, and HMR) are unto themselves, just like little SCA universes and with less people have tons of politics. I also find that the SCA while it may have problems, it has just as many advantages."
Adrian Empire here, er was. I no longer belong to any organization.
I have to say that MY experience was exactly as Galon pointed out. The funny thing is, that most of the people in the Adrian Empire (In my Kingdom) were EX-something-else. They either got sick of, or kicked out of... or had to leave other organizations and form their own. When that fell through, they would move on....
The point is that leaving one, or the other won't make a bit of difference. Hipocracy, idiocy, tennis shoes, etc., are all over out there. Stay where you are and make it better, or leave the life of the Medieval recreator/enactor/sportsman, etc. for good.
Regards,
Thorvold
"Joaquin, as the guy who did exactly as you are doing(back in 1990), I think I should be the one to point something out. I have found that what is left out there is lacking. All 3 of the major live steel groups(AE, ECS, and HMR) are unto themselves, just like little SCA universes and with less people have tons of politics. I also find that the SCA while it may have problems, it has just as many advantages."
Adrian Empire here, er was. I no longer belong to any organization.
I have to say that MY experience was exactly as Galon pointed out. The funny thing is, that most of the people in the Adrian Empire (In my Kingdom) were EX-something-else. They either got sick of, or kicked out of... or had to leave other organizations and form their own. When that fell through, they would move on....
The point is that leaving one, or the other won't make a bit of difference. Hipocracy, idiocy, tennis shoes, etc., are all over out there. Stay where you are and make it better, or leave the life of the Medieval recreator/enactor/sportsman, etc. for good.
Regards,
Thorvold
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Gwen
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[img]http://www.historicenterprises.com/redco/imgs/aoc01/02.jpg[/img]
"Folks who just have to go through the motions of fighting, or, worse, who just stand there to be gawked at by hoi polloi will never udnerstand the limitations SCAdians face in finding armor that lets them fight both authentically and competitively, nor will they understand why those things are so critically important."
I'd be interested to hear the response if someone were to tell these 2 that what they're doing doesn't recreate medieval battle, or that they were "standing around to be gawked at".
Gwen
(Photo taken at the Age of Chivalry Faire, Las Vegas, October 2001. Jeff Hedgecock (left), Bill Reynolds (right) pictured)
"Folks who just have to go through the motions of fighting, or, worse, who just stand there to be gawked at by hoi polloi will never udnerstand the limitations SCAdians face in finding armor that lets them fight both authentically and competitively, nor will they understand why those things are so critically important."
I'd be interested to hear the response if someone were to tell these 2 that what they're doing doesn't recreate medieval battle, or that they were "standing around to be gawked at".
Gwen
(Photo taken at the Age of Chivalry Faire, Las Vegas, October 2001. Jeff Hedgecock (left), Bill Reynolds (right) pictured)
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Rev. George
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Gwen...what i thin they are saying (and not that I agree with it) is:
Did either of these gentleman DIE?
Were either greviously wounded?
If not then no one was doing it right, as the purpose of combat, ESP armed combat is to kill and/or maim.
Persoanlly, I can see the benefit of comabt training, be it limited weapons (rattan) Limited technique (much live steel) or limited targets (other parts of live steel). No one of us can actually say we would be battle field gods, only that, in training, wee hope to catch a glimpse of what it would be like for a person of the middleages preparing for combat.
-+G
Did either of these gentleman DIE?
Were either greviously wounded?
If not then no one was doing it right, as the purpose of combat, ESP armed combat is to kill and/or maim.
Persoanlly, I can see the benefit of comabt training, be it limited weapons (rattan) Limited technique (much live steel) or limited targets (other parts of live steel). No one of us can actually say we would be battle field gods, only that, in training, wee hope to catch a glimpse of what it would be like for a person of the middleages preparing for combat.
-+G
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Winterfell
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The above pic is a goal for me.
I think the point of almost all of these arguements is that no one group is the be all end all of medieval reenactment?
Is the SCA a living history group? No.
Does it have LH members in it? yeah.
Is the SCA officially striving for historical aunthenticity? No.
Is it fun? well yeah.
There are people in the SCA who are strving to bring greater authenticity to the combat aspects, but as a whole, the SCA is not Living History. Therefore one should not say, ever, that that is what the SCA does.
Second SCA is a martial sport. Period. As long as the requirements do not exclude plastic, carpet, and most leather, then that is all it will be and it will never be a reenactment combat. Apples and Oranges. Hitting someone with a rattan cudgel AND not using any historical techniques, but calling it "the closest thing to historical combat" is not only plainly wrong but blindly arrogant.
Does anyone here take one martial sport, such as judo, and bashes another seperate martial art like say boxing? Does anyone here say, "Welll I do judo and that is the closest anciencent martial art you will find." Does anyone here actually even think that?
Puh-lease!
------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics
I think the point of almost all of these arguements is that no one group is the be all end all of medieval reenactment?
Is the SCA a living history group? No.
Does it have LH members in it? yeah.
Is the SCA officially striving for historical aunthenticity? No.
Is it fun? well yeah.
There are people in the SCA who are strving to bring greater authenticity to the combat aspects, but as a whole, the SCA is not Living History. Therefore one should not say, ever, that that is what the SCA does.
Second SCA is a martial sport. Period. As long as the requirements do not exclude plastic, carpet, and most leather, then that is all it will be and it will never be a reenactment combat. Apples and Oranges. Hitting someone with a rattan cudgel AND not using any historical techniques, but calling it "the closest thing to historical combat" is not only plainly wrong but blindly arrogant.
Does anyone here take one martial sport, such as judo, and bashes another seperate martial art like say boxing? Does anyone here say, "Welll I do judo and that is the closest anciencent martial art you will find." Does anyone here actually even think that?
Puh-lease!
------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics
Gwen,
Not to suddenly switch to the other side of this argument, but I do have to concede that SCA combat would have a couple of areas where it *might* be closer to true medieval combat. I stress might, because I don't know enough about the subject. Playing devil's advocate:
1) Speed of combat. Any time you are using rebated or "real" weapons, you had BETTER not be going full speed. Either the combat is choreographed, quasi-choreographed, or in slower motion. Hopefully, these types of reinactors will have studied the proper techniques for their weapons and periods, and the slower pace affords the viewer a greater appreciation for the style on display. So aside from the safety concerns, there is an added bonus. But I don't know that it would match a truly frenetic atmosphere of full-speed combat. Neither the SCA or LH are "to the death", but on the speed side I would favor the SCA and its ilk, and on the technique side I would favor the LH.
2) Power of blows - Any live steel combat I have seen, the blows can be hard, but I don't know that they all-out wail on people like I've seen in similar SCA demonstrations. This is from a neutral observer, mind you. Certainly there are bruises and injuries inherent in both styles, but it would seem to me that it's unavoidable in the SCA, whereas in LH it doesn't happen as often (but when it does, you have the potential for greater injury). What makes this point somewhat silly is that SCA people hit harder - yet wear less armour. Hmmm. Not sure that's something to be "proud" of, but whatever trips yer trigger.
Now on presentation, authenticity, etc. I think LH is MUCH closer, hands down, but on these two points I feel the SCA approximates more closely the frantic and dangerous battlefield.
Of course, once we start talking about mounted combat, all comparisons are called off.
Gwen - I was wondering a couple things about that picture of Jeff up there. How is the combat structured? Is a winner predetermined? IS there a "winner"? Does somebody have to fall off their horse (Golly that would suck!)? Just curious on how that sort of thing is structured. It's serving an informational purpose rather than a competition, but I just wonder how the battle ends....
Thanks!
Ryan
------------------
Ryan King
"Not the Victory, but the Action. Not the Goal, but the Game. In the Deed, the Glory." - Hartley Buff Alexander, 1897
Not to suddenly switch to the other side of this argument, but I do have to concede that SCA combat would have a couple of areas where it *might* be closer to true medieval combat. I stress might, because I don't know enough about the subject. Playing devil's advocate:
1) Speed of combat. Any time you are using rebated or "real" weapons, you had BETTER not be going full speed. Either the combat is choreographed, quasi-choreographed, or in slower motion. Hopefully, these types of reinactors will have studied the proper techniques for their weapons and periods, and the slower pace affords the viewer a greater appreciation for the style on display. So aside from the safety concerns, there is an added bonus. But I don't know that it would match a truly frenetic atmosphere of full-speed combat. Neither the SCA or LH are "to the death", but on the speed side I would favor the SCA and its ilk, and on the technique side I would favor the LH.
2) Power of blows - Any live steel combat I have seen, the blows can be hard, but I don't know that they all-out wail on people like I've seen in similar SCA demonstrations. This is from a neutral observer, mind you. Certainly there are bruises and injuries inherent in both styles, but it would seem to me that it's unavoidable in the SCA, whereas in LH it doesn't happen as often (but when it does, you have the potential for greater injury). What makes this point somewhat silly is that SCA people hit harder - yet wear less armour. Hmmm. Not sure that's something to be "proud" of, but whatever trips yer trigger.
Now on presentation, authenticity, etc. I think LH is MUCH closer, hands down, but on these two points I feel the SCA approximates more closely the frantic and dangerous battlefield.
Of course, once we start talking about mounted combat, all comparisons are called off.
Gwen - I was wondering a couple things about that picture of Jeff up there. How is the combat structured? Is a winner predetermined? IS there a "winner"? Does somebody have to fall off their horse (Golly that would suck!)? Just curious on how that sort of thing is structured. It's serving an informational purpose rather than a competition, but I just wonder how the battle ends....
Thanks!
Ryan
------------------
Ryan King
"Not the Victory, but the Action. Not the Goal, but the Game. In the Deed, the Glory." - Hartley Buff Alexander, 1897
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Winterfell
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Rev. George gotta disagree here.
This arguement which I see time and again;
"Did either of these gentleman DIE?
Were either greviously wounded?
If not then no one was doing it right, as the purpose of combat, ESP armed combat is to kill and/or maim."
Is errent BS!
When this statement is made, do people think that in the course of training soldiers in combat the military includes maiming and killing them!!!!!!!
Do the Marines do that? Did British troops do that in Colonial days? How about the Romans, the Spartans?
Hell did the Afghans do that when training against the Russians (and then us.)
Does this mean that a military unit of any army that trains and trains, but never sees any actual combat a bunch of frauds? That unless one actually kills someone they are doing it WRONG?
Never ever say that in order to fully learn combat techniques you have to physically hurt or kill someone.
Yes there is a difference between training and actually combat/war. But to say that you need to kill someone or maim them in order to learn or effectively use a skill is bloody stupid.
------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics
This arguement which I see time and again;
"Did either of these gentleman DIE?
Were either greviously wounded?
If not then no one was doing it right, as the purpose of combat, ESP armed combat is to kill and/or maim."
Is errent BS!
When this statement is made, do people think that in the course of training soldiers in combat the military includes maiming and killing them!!!!!!!
Do the Marines do that? Did British troops do that in Colonial days? How about the Romans, the Spartans?
Hell did the Afghans do that when training against the Russians (and then us.)
Does this mean that a military unit of any army that trains and trains, but never sees any actual combat a bunch of frauds? That unless one actually kills someone they are doing it WRONG?
Never ever say that in order to fully learn combat techniques you have to physically hurt or kill someone.
Yes there is a difference between training and actually combat/war. But to say that you need to kill someone or maim them in order to learn or effectively use a skill is bloody stupid.
------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics
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FrauHirsch
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galon:
All 3 of the major live steel groups(AE, ECS, and HMR) are unto themselves, just like little SCA universes and with less people have tons of politics. I also find that the SCA while it may have problems, it has just as many advantages.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is so true. We play in the Adrian Empire and are also in the SCA. The live steel groups have small group politics which can be quite nasty. Like the SCA, each regional group is a different culture.
But you even get politics in small re-enactment groups. No group of more than 3 people together is exempt.
Making that "suspension of disbelief" with a group of like minded individuals is really where it is at. I'm not sure that can be done on a grand scale in any group like SCA, HMR, ECS, Adria or the like, but internally to each group individuals and small internal groups can achieve that.
Juliana
All 3 of the major live steel groups(AE, ECS, and HMR) are unto themselves, just like little SCA universes and with less people have tons of politics. I also find that the SCA while it may have problems, it has just as many advantages.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is so true. We play in the Adrian Empire and are also in the SCA. The live steel groups have small group politics which can be quite nasty. Like the SCA, each regional group is a different culture.
But you even get politics in small re-enactment groups. No group of more than 3 people together is exempt.
Making that "suspension of disbelief" with a group of like minded individuals is really where it is at. I'm not sure that can be done on a grand scale in any group like SCA, HMR, ECS, Adria or the like, but internally to each group individuals and small internal groups can achieve that.
Juliana
Rev. George
I don't think they killed each other often in tournament combat. Isn't that what the SCA is trying to do?
OurDecay
It is true that most reenacters pull shots where the SCA does not, but we don't do anything close to historical sword technique in the SCA. The rules are too limiting. Rattan hits like a bat not like a sword. Swords don't bounce off armor.
Flonzy
------------------
Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
I don't think they killed each other often in tournament combat. Isn't that what the SCA is trying to do?
OurDecay
It is true that most reenacters pull shots where the SCA does not, but we don't do anything close to historical sword technique in the SCA. The rules are too limiting. Rattan hits like a bat not like a sword. Swords don't bounce off armor.
Flonzy
------------------
Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
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corbin skarlocke
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Russ Mitchell
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Way too dangerous. Things break, and most of the waster-using groups are folks coming from outside of "heavyish" fencing, and neither have, nor pretend to have, the control to go at it with anything resembling force safely, unless lots and lots of protective material is in play (in which case they'd be fighting differently).
But most of these folks are fencers, which is a different mental world than being a fighter or re-enactor. There are lots of really, really good fencers who use only live steel, and never injure each other at all.
But most of these folks are fencers, which is a different mental world than being a fighter or re-enactor. There are lots of really, really good fencers who use only live steel, and never injure each other at all.
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Jason Grimes
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Although this has been an interesting debate (and entertaining too ). It does bring back to mind something I have been thinking about for some time. If we really want to recreate the middle ages why can't we? I know killing people and real wars are out for very obvious reasons, but why not tournaments? The guys in the middle ages didn't want to die in tournaments (war is the place for that). They had rules and armour standards, and they used rebated weapons. Some did die in the tournaments so there is some places we could "improve". There is a group in Germany that does full-on period armour jousting, although with balsa wood lances. I don't see why we couldn't do foot combate across barriors. The downside to this is the cost of the armour, etc., but it is doable. I guess I just don't see the problem in having the best of all worlds and being period too.
Jason
). It does bring back to mind something I have been thinking about for some time. If we really want to recreate the middle ages why can't we? I know killing people and real wars are out for very obvious reasons, but why not tournaments? The guys in the middle ages didn't want to die in tournaments (war is the place for that). They had rules and armour standards, and they used rebated weapons. Some did die in the tournaments so there is some places we could "improve". There is a group in Germany that does full-on period armour jousting, although with balsa wood lances. I don't see why we couldn't do foot combate across barriors. The downside to this is the cost of the armour, etc., but it is doable. I guess I just don't see the problem in having the best of all worlds and being period too.Jason
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Russ Mitchell
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gwen:
I'd be interested to hear the response if someone were to tell these 2 that what they're doing doesn't recreate medieval battle, or that they were "standing around to be gawked at".</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It doesn't recreate medieval battle.
Tourney, perhaps. Kudos for tremendous presentation, accurate kit, etcetera, and efffort far and away beyond the norm... (you've never seen anything so pathetic as a dozen horse archers sans horsies...) but not medieval combat. For obvious reasons, these gentlemen are not:
1. Attacking the opponent's horse.
2. Cutting the opponent's reins.
3. Trying to cut away under the pauldrons/spaulders.
4. Grabbing at the opponent's visor in order to either stab him in the face, or pull him from the horse.
5. Using the sword as a short spear, as is shown in tourney images.
Now, of course, it's possible that all these things are done in the other photos that I can't see... but we're *all* making compromises for safety. Garb aside, effort aside, it is not to be wondered that different groups make their compromises in different ways, especially in the SCA's case, given that they have more years of group inertia to fight than many of their members have on their drivers' licenses...
With great respect,
Russ
I'd be interested to hear the response if someone were to tell these 2 that what they're doing doesn't recreate medieval battle, or that they were "standing around to be gawked at".</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It doesn't recreate medieval battle.
Tourney, perhaps. Kudos for tremendous presentation, accurate kit, etcetera, and efffort far and away beyond the norm... (you've never seen anything so pathetic as a dozen horse archers sans horsies...) but not medieval combat. For obvious reasons, these gentlemen are not:
1. Attacking the opponent's horse.
2. Cutting the opponent's reins.
3. Trying to cut away under the pauldrons/spaulders.
4. Grabbing at the opponent's visor in order to either stab him in the face, or pull him from the horse.
5. Using the sword as a short spear, as is shown in tourney images.
Now, of course, it's possible that all these things are done in the other photos that I can't see... but we're *all* making compromises for safety. Garb aside, effort aside, it is not to be wondered that different groups make their compromises in different ways, especially in the SCA's case, given that they have more years of group inertia to fight than many of their members have on their drivers' licenses...
With great respect,
Russ
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Rev. George
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Flonzy, winterfell:
did you read my whole post?
Gwen...what i thin they are saying (and not that I agree with it) is:
and:
<i>Persoanlly, I can see the benefit of comabt training, be it limited weapons (rattan) Limited technique (much live steel) or limited targets (other parts of live steel). No one of us can actually say we would be battle field gods, only that, in training, wee hope to catch a glimpse of what it would be like for a person of the middleages preparing for combat.
</i>
I dont mind people disagreeing with me, or agreeing with me, but to mis read something and disagree with the misrepresentation is something I have to correct.
-+G
did you read my whole post?
Gwen...what i thin they are saying (and not that I agree with it) is:
and:
<i>Persoanlly, I can see the benefit of comabt training, be it limited weapons (rattan) Limited technique (much live steel) or limited targets (other parts of live steel). No one of us can actually say we would be battle field gods, only that, in training, wee hope to catch a glimpse of what it would be like for a person of the middleages preparing for combat.
</i>
I dont mind people disagreeing with me, or agreeing with me, but to mis read something and disagree with the misrepresentation is something I have to correct.
-+G
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chef de chambre:
[b]Hi All,
The dichotemy is indeed artificial. The assumption is that the only possible means of competitive combat medieval is based soley in SCA fighting. This is utter horse-hockey. Adria, Markland, and the scores of other knock-offs does not exist apparently, Neither does the live steel competitions in Europe and Autrailia/New Zeeland.
******************************************
I think Rhys was actually commenting on the amount of force used in the SCA, affecting how closely we can copy some historic pieces,
both in fit, styling, and thickness of materials.
I own a nice pair of McPhearson (spelling ?)gauntlets. If I am ever fighting for my life I would wear them and feel reasonably secure that all of my fingers would be attached at days end, on the other hand in the SCA I have a fair certainty that wearing them will let me have at least one significant injury to my hands in the course of the day, they're beautiful, but ill suited to the "baton" combat the SCA does.
*********************************************
I would reccommend for those who believe this to be the truth to attend the Armoured combat tourney in Chicago this year. Oh yes, you cannot win using non-historic technique, and don't be surprised if you are thrown on your ass.
*********************************************
Working from period sources one can be certain that something mentioned, or illustrated did exist, on the other hand since we are talking about motion, and technique, not a physical object, how can you state that some attack or another did not exist because you can't document it? I have to think that this is one place on this board where the concepts of evidence of absense, and absense of evidence are important.
My grandfather was a WWI veteran, he assured me that there is no finer weapon to use in the close confines of a trench than a entrenching tool (small shovel) with the sides of the "blade" sharpened, Can I document it using any known training manual- no, is there some manual of arms for it - no
On the other hand I have to feel that the tool itself and whatever techniques he used were a perfectly valid form of defence, given that he lived to come home to New York and march down Broadway.
I know people have gone back and forth on this site for as long as I have been visiting about "wraparound" blows, if you state that they are not documentable, I have absolutely no arguement with you, if on the other hand you state that they are ineffectual I'll have a good laugh
As to the throws that your groups do, yes they are historical, and effective, but the injury rate for the SCA would skyrocket.
Can I suggest that the SCA can't do throws safely any more that a "live steel" group could safely strike, and thrust with steel weapons at an SCA force level.
******************************************
Our armour doesn't have to be functional? Haul your ass up on a horse Rhys, and try using a sword or lance from horseback, and tell me you can do that in non functional armour. Get a grip.
*****************************************
Could you please go back and re-read what he posted, his arguemnt was that SCA armor has to be robust enough to survive an incredable pounding again and again, and remain functional in the process. As I recall from several months ago one of Bascots complaints about the SCA was that a plate harness of his (and consequently his person) were badly damaged in the course of a days fighting
******************************************
As to prowess being the sole definer and competition - yes, these things are important. As equally important was appearance, and if you doubt this, then you need to go look at some primary documentation regarding what was spent to puchase what items for tourneys and single combats. You not only had to be able to preform, you had to look the part of your station. Froissarts hero's and de Charney would not give you the time of day if you looked like a low-class schlub, no matter how well you can fight. You would be treated as a member of the third estate if that is the part you looked.
******************************************
Your (historical) era is several hundred years past mine, but alas even with the passage of centuries Blessed St. Bernards admonition to seek deeds, honor, and salvation through fighting, and distain silks and gold ornamentation on your armor and weapons still goes unheeded.
******************************************
Can we ratchet this arguement down and try to get something productive out of it?
[This message has been edited by mordreth (edited 06-05-2002).]
[This message has been edited by mordreth (edited 06-05-2002).]
[b]Hi All,
The dichotemy is indeed artificial. The assumption is that the only possible means of competitive combat medieval is based soley in SCA fighting. This is utter horse-hockey. Adria, Markland, and the scores of other knock-offs does not exist apparently, Neither does the live steel competitions in Europe and Autrailia/New Zeeland.
******************************************
I think Rhys was actually commenting on the amount of force used in the SCA, affecting how closely we can copy some historic pieces,
both in fit, styling, and thickness of materials.
I own a nice pair of McPhearson (spelling ?)gauntlets. If I am ever fighting for my life I would wear them and feel reasonably secure that all of my fingers would be attached at days end, on the other hand in the SCA I have a fair certainty that wearing them will let me have at least one significant injury to my hands in the course of the day, they're beautiful, but ill suited to the "baton" combat the SCA does.
*********************************************
I would reccommend for those who believe this to be the truth to attend the Armoured combat tourney in Chicago this year. Oh yes, you cannot win using non-historic technique, and don't be surprised if you are thrown on your ass.
*********************************************
Working from period sources one can be certain that something mentioned, or illustrated did exist, on the other hand since we are talking about motion, and technique, not a physical object, how can you state that some attack or another did not exist because you can't document it? I have to think that this is one place on this board where the concepts of evidence of absense, and absense of evidence are important.
My grandfather was a WWI veteran, he assured me that there is no finer weapon to use in the close confines of a trench than a entrenching tool (small shovel) with the sides of the "blade" sharpened, Can I document it using any known training manual- no, is there some manual of arms for it - no
On the other hand I have to feel that the tool itself and whatever techniques he used were a perfectly valid form of defence, given that he lived to come home to New York and march down Broadway.
I know people have gone back and forth on this site for as long as I have been visiting about "wraparound" blows, if you state that they are not documentable, I have absolutely no arguement with you, if on the other hand you state that they are ineffectual I'll have a good laugh
As to the throws that your groups do, yes they are historical, and effective, but the injury rate for the SCA would skyrocket.
Can I suggest that the SCA can't do throws safely any more that a "live steel" group could safely strike, and thrust with steel weapons at an SCA force level.
******************************************
Our armour doesn't have to be functional? Haul your ass up on a horse Rhys, and try using a sword or lance from horseback, and tell me you can do that in non functional armour. Get a grip.
*****************************************
Could you please go back and re-read what he posted, his arguemnt was that SCA armor has to be robust enough to survive an incredable pounding again and again, and remain functional in the process. As I recall from several months ago one of Bascots complaints about the SCA was that a plate harness of his (and consequently his person) were badly damaged in the course of a days fighting
******************************************
As to prowess being the sole definer and competition - yes, these things are important. As equally important was appearance, and if you doubt this, then you need to go look at some primary documentation regarding what was spent to puchase what items for tourneys and single combats. You not only had to be able to preform, you had to look the part of your station. Froissarts hero's and de Charney would not give you the time of day if you looked like a low-class schlub, no matter how well you can fight. You would be treated as a member of the third estate if that is the part you looked.
******************************************
Your (historical) era is several hundred years past mine, but alas even with the passage of centuries Blessed St. Bernards admonition to seek deeds, honor, and salvation through fighting, and distain silks and gold ornamentation on your armor and weapons still goes unheeded.
******************************************
Can we ratchet this arguement down and try to get something productive out of it?
[This message has been edited by mordreth (edited 06-05-2002).]
[This message has been edited by mordreth (edited 06-05-2002).]
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Gwen
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1201
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Ramona, CA 92065
- Contact:
Hi Ryan, et al-
speed of combat / combat structure- Jeff and Bill train together and therefore go at it full speed, as do David, John and Jimmy when they do the same thing on the ground.
What I can tell you from the sidelines is that our guys go at it just as hard and fast as any of the other groups I've seen. The interesting thing I've noticed is that where a guy wielding rattan will keep hitting harder or ignoring blows because he thinks he *can't* hurt his opponent (there's no edge, it's just a stick, etc.) our guys are very aware that they *could* hurt somebody, so they tend not to "turn up the volume". The point here is that IMO rattan fighter hit much harder than someone wielding a real sword would have to, and the moves are much different. So in essence an SCA fighter expends much more effort to club his opponent to submission, where his historical counterpart would have had to expend much less effort to slice his opponent to shreds. Having seen both, I'm not sure rattan combat really looks much like sword combat. And no, the guys in our group don't choreograph at all. Jeff and Bill were practicing some Fiore stuff at Ft. Mac last year, seeing how far they could take it. The testosterone level suddenly spiked and Jeff walked away bloody and very winded. Was it real? Absolutely. And very impressive for the audience. [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
I think the idea that combat training being valid even though it’s not “to the deathâ€
speed of combat / combat structure- Jeff and Bill train together and therefore go at it full speed, as do David, John and Jimmy when they do the same thing on the ground.
What I can tell you from the sidelines is that our guys go at it just as hard and fast as any of the other groups I've seen. The interesting thing I've noticed is that where a guy wielding rattan will keep hitting harder or ignoring blows because he thinks he *can't* hurt his opponent (there's no edge, it's just a stick, etc.) our guys are very aware that they *could* hurt somebody, so they tend not to "turn up the volume". The point here is that IMO rattan fighter hit much harder than someone wielding a real sword would have to, and the moves are much different. So in essence an SCA fighter expends much more effort to club his opponent to submission, where his historical counterpart would have had to expend much less effort to slice his opponent to shreds. Having seen both, I'm not sure rattan combat really looks much like sword combat. And no, the guys in our group don't choreograph at all. Jeff and Bill were practicing some Fiore stuff at Ft. Mac last year, seeing how far they could take it. The testosterone level suddenly spiked and Jeff walked away bloody and very winded. Was it real? Absolutely. And very impressive for the audience. [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
I think the idea that combat training being valid even though it’s not “to the deathâ€
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JJ Shred
- Archive Member
- Posts: 10324
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Altamont, Tennessee
- Contact:
When I still had my squire two years ago we went at it full speed and hit hard. If you got in and could land a blow you would pull it at the last minute. If you can't pull a blow with a 2 - 3 lb sword in the last foot of your swing you have no control or any business out there to start with. Any martial arts practitioner can pull blows. Helm shots or heavily armoured spots got whacked.
Yes, I have bled from this. Caught a shot to the bridge of my nose last summer and bled like a stuck pig. Had my barrel helm smashed by a flanged Thames mace a few years ago. I've rushed in to pull a Fiore lock only to find my opponent knew the counter and found myself flat on my back. I've fallen off horses in armour, been knocked off, pulled off, whatever. Interestingly enough, the only time I've ever been seriously injured was when doing SCA combat, and I stumbled in a hole walking forward to engage my opponent. How many SCA fighters (or Renn. Faire performers) have died on the field? How many have died driving to the field? Which is more dangerous?
Another way to look at it would be: Pennsic - 6 hrs. driving each way, 12 total. If I fought every day - say 3 hours a day, 5 days 15 hours. I would fight more than drive, but would be more likely to get hurt in the shorter drive time.
Silverleaf - 4 1/2 hours twice = 9 hrs X 3 weekends = 27 hrs. drive time. 3 shows 20 minutes per with me fighting 6 days = 6 hrs total fight time. Therefore, Renn. Faire live steel is more dangerous than SCA combat, not because of the combat, but because of the increased driving time!!!
Moral of story: The safest form of combat is that which you can walk to....
[This message has been edited by Bascot (edited 06-05-2002).]
Yes, I have bled from this. Caught a shot to the bridge of my nose last summer and bled like a stuck pig. Had my barrel helm smashed by a flanged Thames mace a few years ago. I've rushed in to pull a Fiore lock only to find my opponent knew the counter and found myself flat on my back. I've fallen off horses in armour, been knocked off, pulled off, whatever. Interestingly enough, the only time I've ever been seriously injured was when doing SCA combat, and I stumbled in a hole walking forward to engage my opponent. How many SCA fighters (or Renn. Faire performers) have died on the field? How many have died driving to the field? Which is more dangerous?
Another way to look at it would be: Pennsic - 6 hrs. driving each way, 12 total. If I fought every day - say 3 hours a day, 5 days 15 hours. I would fight more than drive, but would be more likely to get hurt in the shorter drive time.
Silverleaf - 4 1/2 hours twice = 9 hrs X 3 weekends = 27 hrs. drive time. 3 shows 20 minutes per with me fighting 6 days = 6 hrs total fight time. Therefore, Renn. Faire live steel is more dangerous than SCA combat, not because of the combat, but because of the increased driving time!!!
Moral of story: The safest form of combat is that which you can walk to....
[This message has been edited by Bascot (edited 06-05-2002).]
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MoonHidesTheSun
- New Member
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: manhattan kansas usa
I would first like to state that I have never had an oppertunity to play in any of the Live Steel or Re-enactment groups but I have fought within the SCA for over ten years. And it is the realism of the combat that I would like to address.
First of all, I know that Rattan and Steel swords do impact much differently from each other. But I myself as well as many others I know do our best to balance and weight our Rattan swords as closely to what they would be in period.
The main thing that should be brought up when considering the differences would be the safety issue. Rattan is used by the Society due to its ability to flex instead of hit with unrelenting force. Unlike many substances Rattan when it breaks, which is more often to happen than the person, seperates out in a broom like fashion istead of splintering. adding even more to the safety consideration.
Now as far as people feeling that within the SCA that we club our opponent into submission, or that we hit with greater force than other organizations I feel this is untrue. The Society is very safety conscious in all the aspects of its form of combat, second only to having fun. (the two being equally tied in most participants minds) I know that when I fight I am very aware of the fact that I could quite easily hurt my opponent if were to use too much or excessive force. Now I will also state that every kingdom within the Society has it's own lve; of force in wich they feel is an acceptable amount of force. The criteria being that the blow should be delivered in such a way that they feel it would have penetrated their opponents armor as if they were wearing chain maile and an open faced nasal helm.
That beingbeing said their is also the issue ofpeople feeling that no one feels that combatants within the SCA do not use period fighting techniques. Now I am not saying that these feelings are untrue false, but perhaps uninformed when used within the general context. Their are many within the Society who strive to make their fighting as period as possible as well as their kit.
Now I do agree that SCA combat goes that little bit further to being more like real combat in its use of full speed. But no we will never be truly like real combat in the fact that we only do simulated wounds and death based on a honor and acknowledgement system. But I am sure the other groups have their own version of the same thing.I think the Societies main bonus in their combat is that it is never choreographed.
I'm of the same opinion that if you are having fun with what you do, more power to you that's the way it should. I'm always interested in talking about the differences between groups and who knows someone may be able to convince that their style of game is something that I may enjoy and be feasible for me to do.
Moon
First of all, I know that Rattan and Steel swords do impact much differently from each other. But I myself as well as many others I know do our best to balance and weight our Rattan swords as closely to what they would be in period.
The main thing that should be brought up when considering the differences would be the safety issue. Rattan is used by the Society due to its ability to flex instead of hit with unrelenting force. Unlike many substances Rattan when it breaks, which is more often to happen than the person, seperates out in a broom like fashion istead of splintering. adding even more to the safety consideration.
Now as far as people feeling that within the SCA that we club our opponent into submission, or that we hit with greater force than other organizations I feel this is untrue. The Society is very safety conscious in all the aspects of its form of combat, second only to having fun. (the two being equally tied in most participants minds) I know that when I fight I am very aware of the fact that I could quite easily hurt my opponent if were to use too much or excessive force. Now I will also state that every kingdom within the Society has it's own lve; of force in wich they feel is an acceptable amount of force. The criteria being that the blow should be delivered in such a way that they feel it would have penetrated their opponents armor as if they were wearing chain maile and an open faced nasal helm.
That beingbeing said their is also the issue ofpeople feeling that no one feels that combatants within the SCA do not use period fighting techniques. Now I am not saying that these feelings are untrue false, but perhaps uninformed when used within the general context. Their are many within the Society who strive to make their fighting as period as possible as well as their kit.
Now I do agree that SCA combat goes that little bit further to being more like real combat in its use of full speed. But no we will never be truly like real combat in the fact that we only do simulated wounds and death based on a honor and acknowledgement system. But I am sure the other groups have their own version of the same thing.I think the Societies main bonus in their combat is that it is never choreographed.
I'm of the same opinion that if you are having fun with what you do, more power to you that's the way it should. I'm always interested in talking about the differences between groups and who knows someone may be able to convince that their style of game is something that I may enjoy and be feasible for me to do.
Moon
Somewhere along the way, this became a rattan vs. steel argument- folks, we've seen this one before. Amazingly enough, most longtime SCA types think rattan is more realistic, whereas everyone else thinks steel/waster training is. Who would have guessed? [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
But way back when the thread started, the subject was about how to experience what our medieval predecessors did. Vitus eloquently spoke of how he felt close to his medieval counterparts because he, like they, had to train hard and endure the proverbial blood, sweat and tears to get to his current level in his group.
Part of the reenactor philosophy hinges on the value of our ancestor's experience. To experience this, we figure out what they were doing as best we can, then try it ourselves. If I want to know what the life of a soldier is like, I train how (I believe) they did. I read the old manuals, study under folks with years of experience (FWIW, my current instructor has survived a knife fight), and equip myself as a soldier of the period would have when he trained. Sure, I'll never have to fight for my life (I hope!). But then again, I spent 7 years in the modern military training to kill without ever getting into a real fight.
For a reenactor, though, this doesn't stop at combat. "In the field", we'll sleep in period tents on straw ticks, eat period foods (admittedly, probably better food than the average pikeman would get. I figure we're lucky), drill, and amuse ourselves with various pastimes. If it were just combat, I'd stick to my WMA group and wear modern protection.
As Gwen said, this isn't SCA bashing- heck, I'm in the SCA myself. I'm fortunate in that my local SCA group does do a lot of reenacting, perhaps not as consistently as RedCo, but that comes with the SCA all-inclusiveness ethic. It can be done, though, and don't let anyone tell you it can't (or for that matter, that it's too hard).
But way back when the thread started, the subject was about how to experience what our medieval predecessors did. Vitus eloquently spoke of how he felt close to his medieval counterparts because he, like they, had to train hard and endure the proverbial blood, sweat and tears to get to his current level in his group.
Part of the reenactor philosophy hinges on the value of our ancestor's experience. To experience this, we figure out what they were doing as best we can, then try it ourselves. If I want to know what the life of a soldier is like, I train how (I believe) they did. I read the old manuals, study under folks with years of experience (FWIW, my current instructor has survived a knife fight), and equip myself as a soldier of the period would have when he trained. Sure, I'll never have to fight for my life (I hope!). But then again, I spent 7 years in the modern military training to kill without ever getting into a real fight.
For a reenactor, though, this doesn't stop at combat. "In the field", we'll sleep in period tents on straw ticks, eat period foods (admittedly, probably better food than the average pikeman would get. I figure we're lucky), drill, and amuse ourselves with various pastimes. If it were just combat, I'd stick to my WMA group and wear modern protection.
As Gwen said, this isn't SCA bashing- heck, I'm in the SCA myself. I'm fortunate in that my local SCA group does do a lot of reenacting, perhaps not as consistently as RedCo, but that comes with the SCA all-inclusiveness ethic. It can be done, though, and don't let anyone tell you it can't (or for that matter, that it's too hard).
Hm...
To start with: Those amongst you who think that steel fight and re-enactment is pure display should try to take on some of the Russian Viking groups.
No offence to the Russians, they are skilled fighters, but damn - they hit you hard!
In 2000 we had to carry one of our lads bleeding of the battlegrounds, knocked out by a sword. It was he's own fault though; he used a chin mail coif WITHOUT padding - very stupid!
Another 'westerner', no names, had his Germundbu-styled helmet knocked in by another sword blow.
I'm by no means implying that this is good, every injury is a defeat, but some fighters seems to think that steel fighting is merely about waiving weapons in delicate 'Conan-esque' patterns while you show of in shiny armour. -Well, take my word for it: It's not!
Of course there has to be some limitations and rules, hitting someone clean on the head with a PZ axe will kill him, blunt or not, and so will a face thrust with a sword if it's performed in the 'right' manner. It's the hand and the brain behind the weapon that controls it AND is responsible for what it does to the opponent. Injuries are 'non grata', but bruises and cracked collarbones do occur and will do so as long as we keep up our game. Face it; -it's all a game and to some, a sport. The real problems occur when some try to lend it the grace of 'truth' and authenticity. To call it re-enactment or living history is really fundamentally wrong.
We, modern people, pick up artefacts of earlier periods and use them as toys (or for some: Fetishes). One might order armour made just like an original and fight in it, but it would still not be the 'real thing' because the 'real thing' happened hundreds of years ago in a completely different cultural context. If people want to dress up in 10'proof armour, -let them, but try to avoid getting to close to the audience during demos and other 'open' events! When we make such shows we have a responsibility towards our audience. They come there to see Romans, Vikings, Knights or what ever the theme might be. They'll see your gear, authentic or not, and to them it's the real thing. Do you want to have it on your conscience to spread outright lies? I don't.
We all start off crawling, but if one can't 'stand' and 'walk' after some years maybe one should consider why, and maybe ask oneself whether it's desirable to keep on crawling or not, and if the answer to that is negative, maybe by help of others try to cure it.
Just my thoughts on the topic, I might be wrong…
Regards
/Ny Björn
------------------
Ny Björn Gustafsson
Archaeological guide
Birka
To start with: Those amongst you who think that steel fight and re-enactment is pure display should try to take on some of the Russian Viking groups.
No offence to the Russians, they are skilled fighters, but damn - they hit you hard!
In 2000 we had to carry one of our lads bleeding of the battlegrounds, knocked out by a sword. It was he's own fault though; he used a chin mail coif WITHOUT padding - very stupid!
Another 'westerner', no names, had his Germundbu-styled helmet knocked in by another sword blow.
I'm by no means implying that this is good, every injury is a defeat, but some fighters seems to think that steel fighting is merely about waiving weapons in delicate 'Conan-esque' patterns while you show of in shiny armour. -Well, take my word for it: It's not!
Of course there has to be some limitations and rules, hitting someone clean on the head with a PZ axe will kill him, blunt or not, and so will a face thrust with a sword if it's performed in the 'right' manner. It's the hand and the brain behind the weapon that controls it AND is responsible for what it does to the opponent. Injuries are 'non grata', but bruises and cracked collarbones do occur and will do so as long as we keep up our game. Face it; -it's all a game and to some, a sport. The real problems occur when some try to lend it the grace of 'truth' and authenticity. To call it re-enactment or living history is really fundamentally wrong.
We, modern people, pick up artefacts of earlier periods and use them as toys (or for some: Fetishes). One might order armour made just like an original and fight in it, but it would still not be the 'real thing' because the 'real thing' happened hundreds of years ago in a completely different cultural context. If people want to dress up in 10'proof armour, -let them, but try to avoid getting to close to the audience during demos and other 'open' events! When we make such shows we have a responsibility towards our audience. They come there to see Romans, Vikings, Knights or what ever the theme might be. They'll see your gear, authentic or not, and to them it's the real thing. Do you want to have it on your conscience to spread outright lies? I don't.
We all start off crawling, but if one can't 'stand' and 'walk' after some years maybe one should consider why, and maybe ask oneself whether it's desirable to keep on crawling or not, and if the answer to that is negative, maybe by help of others try to cure it.
Just my thoughts on the topic, I might be wrong…
Regards
/Ny Björn
------------------
Ny Björn Gustafsson
Archaeological guide
Birka
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Vitus von Atzinger
- Archive Member
- Posts: 14039
- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Louisville, Ky. USA
This thread is not going the way I had planned. What I was trying to express is this- I feel that I have recently experienced many inner changes, and these changes spring from many different sources. I am trying to explain that even though we can't do any type of combat, display or study perfectly- it's possible to combine all of the different approaches into an understanding that none of the approaches -taken alone- can produce.
See? Living History reminds me that I am on display, that part of what I do is performance art. I can look at the more accurate groups out there and use them as a barometer- a measuring stick for myself and others.
I was at an SCA event called "Aethelmearc War Practice", and I saw a knight standing alone in the field- everyone was avoiding him. I noticed that he had on fighting turnshoes, greaves and a beautiful surcoat. He was the most accurate-looking person on the field. I was immediately filled with great admiration for him, and I approached him. I said-
"Good Sir, God grant you a happy time of day. I can tell by your harness and bearing that you are a man of quality- we must cross swords right now, so I may show you my great admiration."
We fought, and it was even. He signed my questing book and left me inspirational words that filled me with hope and energy. Our fight was difficult and the pressure was high, because -as Richard Kaeuper quotes the Vulgate- "when two knights meet in the woods, they fight". Only by testing his prowess could I see if he was a man of heart and strength. The fight had to be as hard and fast as it could be, because our Prowess was being expressed...much like we were singing on stage. It's moments like these that I treasure so much- the SCA gives me these opportunities, these moments.
When I first started buying clothing and accessories from Gwen and Jeff, I was shocked at how amazing it felt to wear these things. When I first wore chausses and braies- this was NOT wearing a poly-cotton t-tunic over my jeans. This felt very different- very alien. It made me feel more authentic and more medieval. It was so COOL. See? I took something from the Living History movement, and it helped to deepen my experience.
When Sir Rhys and Sir Brion Thornbird both threatened to cut off my thumbs for shooting a SCA combat crossbow, this was a really cool experience. The culture of Knights was at work- belief in action, and Pennsic set the stage for such a lesson.
I have e-mailed back and forth with guys who participate in the Hastings re-enactment. Sir Henrik of Havn has answered my questions about what it was like to ride up to the Saxon shield wall. Re-enactment had given me something I always wondered about. Another beautiful piece of the puzzle.
Bascot loves his horses, Rhys loves his hawks and his hounds. When I win the Powerball, they will be able to live this way forever. Everyone has a piece of food to bring to the feast. I won't push away anything that will help fill in the puzzle.
Living History shows me the way the medieval world (probably) really looked- I can use these images to refine my imagination. The guy in plastic doesn't bother me as much, because I will no-doubt meet a gentleman of worth somewhere upon the field. I can speak to him of knightly things- talk of ransoms gained and talk of the eternal gifts of Christ. We are both jocks- we train and stay in shape to protect our honor, but he may be searching for me in the press as well. He will see my aventail and say "did Erik Schmid make that"?
The SCA gives me a wide world, where there are churls and fools and knights and squires who seek recognition for their strength and resolve.
The SCA made me tough beyond anything that I would have predicted. I do not shy away from a good beating. I admire Sir Dilan and Duke Edmund and I remember Inman...these are all men who have contributed to my transformation- my friends say they don't know me. My knight put me upon the path all those years ago, my friends believed in me, and my lady has stood by with patience while I tilt at the windmills. These people saved me from a dishonorable life. Those idiots who think that chasing money and driving the right car are the only things that matter... I always suspected that they were wrong. They ARE. We are not the fools and the dreamers.
De Charney is my guide.
If it were not for all of these different approaches, I would not have any understanding about what to do- I seek renown and knightly fame, and I will seek it in the press. I don't give a crap if they swords are made of rattan- the lessons they teach are so, so real. I will run to battle.
The path I am talking about has nothing to do with worrying about whether or not the wrap shot is documentable. I can knock a person silly with it, so it works for me. Whatever is documentable is that much cooler, and I respect the masters who have taught me so much.
I don't care if your coat of plates buckles up the front- somebody tried it sometime. I am living in the Current Middle Ages, and sometimes people create amazing things- sometimes they don't.
Can't you people see that all of this bickering that we do takes us away from the most important thing- defeating ourselves? I don't endorse this bickering anymore- tell me about deeds that you have done, about blows that you landed when another worthy man was trying with all of his heart to stop you.
The struggle transforms you- it can reveal your vocation or your lack of vocation. All of the people and approaches here have something to offer- take what they teach and seek honor.
Go and seek honor! Seek out the impossible and do it. Who cares about winning an arguement about sliding rivets. Make something beautiful. DO SOMETHING HARD- SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE AFRAID TO DO. Seek honor as DeCharney describes- go to where the men are fighting. The way you swing your poleaxe doesn't really matter that much- go to where the fighting is, because the knights of old say that it is shameful to stay home when you can possibly spread your renown and increase your reputation. Challenge Sir Dilan of the 100 Duels- recieve the holy stripes of courage! Win honor! Serve your King!
This thread was to make you think about what your Dragon is, where your Dragon is, and whether or not you have the guts to go forward as St. George did.
When it's possible to lose, there is an opportunity to show great courage. Do the impossible. Seek honor.
Look at Duke Finnvarr, a man in his mid-50's. He has fought at every point battle at every Pennsic. When he looks tired, I say to him "Why don't you stay in camp- you must be tired." He looks at me with horror in his eyes and says...
"Do not spare your wretched body."
Again, you all have much to teach- nobody disputes that. But I am asking you to forget about tearing other people down- go chase the Dragon! Seek Honor!
-Vitus
See? Living History reminds me that I am on display, that part of what I do is performance art. I can look at the more accurate groups out there and use them as a barometer- a measuring stick for myself and others.
I was at an SCA event called "Aethelmearc War Practice", and I saw a knight standing alone in the field- everyone was avoiding him. I noticed that he had on fighting turnshoes, greaves and a beautiful surcoat. He was the most accurate-looking person on the field. I was immediately filled with great admiration for him, and I approached him. I said-
"Good Sir, God grant you a happy time of day. I can tell by your harness and bearing that you are a man of quality- we must cross swords right now, so I may show you my great admiration."
We fought, and it was even. He signed my questing book and left me inspirational words that filled me with hope and energy. Our fight was difficult and the pressure was high, because -as Richard Kaeuper quotes the Vulgate- "when two knights meet in the woods, they fight". Only by testing his prowess could I see if he was a man of heart and strength. The fight had to be as hard and fast as it could be, because our Prowess was being expressed...much like we were singing on stage. It's moments like these that I treasure so much- the SCA gives me these opportunities, these moments.
When I first started buying clothing and accessories from Gwen and Jeff, I was shocked at how amazing it felt to wear these things. When I first wore chausses and braies- this was NOT wearing a poly-cotton t-tunic over my jeans. This felt very different- very alien. It made me feel more authentic and more medieval. It was so COOL. See? I took something from the Living History movement, and it helped to deepen my experience.
When Sir Rhys and Sir Brion Thornbird both threatened to cut off my thumbs for shooting a SCA combat crossbow, this was a really cool experience. The culture of Knights was at work- belief in action, and Pennsic set the stage for such a lesson.
I have e-mailed back and forth with guys who participate in the Hastings re-enactment. Sir Henrik of Havn has answered my questions about what it was like to ride up to the Saxon shield wall. Re-enactment had given me something I always wondered about. Another beautiful piece of the puzzle.
Bascot loves his horses, Rhys loves his hawks and his hounds. When I win the Powerball, they will be able to live this way forever. Everyone has a piece of food to bring to the feast. I won't push away anything that will help fill in the puzzle.
Living History shows me the way the medieval world (probably) really looked- I can use these images to refine my imagination. The guy in plastic doesn't bother me as much, because I will no-doubt meet a gentleman of worth somewhere upon the field. I can speak to him of knightly things- talk of ransoms gained and talk of the eternal gifts of Christ. We are both jocks- we train and stay in shape to protect our honor, but he may be searching for me in the press as well. He will see my aventail and say "did Erik Schmid make that"?
The SCA gives me a wide world, where there are churls and fools and knights and squires who seek recognition for their strength and resolve.
The SCA made me tough beyond anything that I would have predicted. I do not shy away from a good beating. I admire Sir Dilan and Duke Edmund and I remember Inman...these are all men who have contributed to my transformation- my friends say they don't know me. My knight put me upon the path all those years ago, my friends believed in me, and my lady has stood by with patience while I tilt at the windmills. These people saved me from a dishonorable life. Those idiots who think that chasing money and driving the right car are the only things that matter... I always suspected that they were wrong. They ARE. We are not the fools and the dreamers.
De Charney is my guide.
If it were not for all of these different approaches, I would not have any understanding about what to do- I seek renown and knightly fame, and I will seek it in the press. I don't give a crap if they swords are made of rattan- the lessons they teach are so, so real. I will run to battle.
The path I am talking about has nothing to do with worrying about whether or not the wrap shot is documentable. I can knock a person silly with it, so it works for me. Whatever is documentable is that much cooler, and I respect the masters who have taught me so much.
I don't care if your coat of plates buckles up the front- somebody tried it sometime. I am living in the Current Middle Ages, and sometimes people create amazing things- sometimes they don't.
Can't you people see that all of this bickering that we do takes us away from the most important thing- defeating ourselves? I don't endorse this bickering anymore- tell me about deeds that you have done, about blows that you landed when another worthy man was trying with all of his heart to stop you.
The struggle transforms you- it can reveal your vocation or your lack of vocation. All of the people and approaches here have something to offer- take what they teach and seek honor.
Go and seek honor! Seek out the impossible and do it. Who cares about winning an arguement about sliding rivets. Make something beautiful. DO SOMETHING HARD- SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE AFRAID TO DO. Seek honor as DeCharney describes- go to where the men are fighting. The way you swing your poleaxe doesn't really matter that much- go to where the fighting is, because the knights of old say that it is shameful to stay home when you can possibly spread your renown and increase your reputation. Challenge Sir Dilan of the 100 Duels- recieve the holy stripes of courage! Win honor! Serve your King!
This thread was to make you think about what your Dragon is, where your Dragon is, and whether or not you have the guts to go forward as St. George did.
When it's possible to lose, there is an opportunity to show great courage. Do the impossible. Seek honor.
Look at Duke Finnvarr, a man in his mid-50's. He has fought at every point battle at every Pennsic. When he looks tired, I say to him "Why don't you stay in camp- you must be tired." He looks at me with horror in his eyes and says...
"Do not spare your wretched body."
Again, you all have much to teach- nobody disputes that. But I am asking you to forget about tearing other people down- go chase the Dragon! Seek Honor!
-Vitus
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Tom Knighton
- Doesn't Care
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My opinion is that there is only one way to settle the old rattan vs. Live steel debate. Lets all go back in time and fight a real battle with sharpened steel swords and the side still standing wins 
Seriously though, I think both styles have something to offer. I am planning on joining Regia in the near future as well as working to make my own SCA kit more authentic. I want to know as much as possible about combat in my period. I'm not going to get that out of any one style of recreational combat. Live steel has to pull shots while rattan doesn't act like a real sword. Who is right? Maybe to a small extent, both are. I know it sounds silly but maybe BOTH have something to offer. I've never fought with live steel, but I'd be interested to see who much SCA stuff I could use with an actualy medieval weapon. Perhaps not a sword, but a mace could be a decent match.
I have to agree with Vitus in his original post. I am trying to learn everything that my persona would have known. This isn't limited to combat prowess, but also his culture. This is so I can recreate, in my mind at least, some idea of what he would have really been like. I can't say that reenactors don't do that, but my limited reenactment experience (ACW) didn't really encourage much of that. I hope the medieval community DOES.
We need to end this whole, "you guys are wrong" crap and realize that most of us are on the same side. We want to learn about history and be able to show others how things were done way back when. Instead of sniping about who is doing it right, why don't we try to help one another do it better. No one can do it perfect, but at least we can all try to do better.
Bran
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Courage is not the absence of fear, it's the ability to overcome it.
Seriously though, I think both styles have something to offer. I am planning on joining Regia in the near future as well as working to make my own SCA kit more authentic. I want to know as much as possible about combat in my period. I'm not going to get that out of any one style of recreational combat. Live steel has to pull shots while rattan doesn't act like a real sword. Who is right? Maybe to a small extent, both are. I know it sounds silly but maybe BOTH have something to offer. I've never fought with live steel, but I'd be interested to see who much SCA stuff I could use with an actualy medieval weapon. Perhaps not a sword, but a mace could be a decent match.
I have to agree with Vitus in his original post. I am trying to learn everything that my persona would have known. This isn't limited to combat prowess, but also his culture. This is so I can recreate, in my mind at least, some idea of what he would have really been like. I can't say that reenactors don't do that, but my limited reenactment experience (ACW) didn't really encourage much of that. I hope the medieval community DOES.
We need to end this whole, "you guys are wrong" crap and realize that most of us are on the same side. We want to learn about history and be able to show others how things were done way back when. Instead of sniping about who is doing it right, why don't we try to help one another do it better. No one can do it perfect, but at least we can all try to do better.
Bran
------------------
Courage is not the absence of fear, it's the ability to overcome it.
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FrauHirsch
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by David:
<B>Somewhere along the way, this became a rattan vs. steel argument- folks, we've seen this one before. Amazingly enough, most longtime SCA types think rattan is more realistic, whereas everyone else thinks steel/waster training is. Who would have guessed? [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well David, as you know, even for steel we train with rattan, because IMHO there is an element of danger that makes training more limited when using steel. You need control for steel, but IMHO, you can't learn full speed control without full speed fighting, so training/fighting in steel always needs something "held back". This makes using steel hard to teach certain things which would make combat more realistic.
I'd rather train the full power/speed with rattan and then back off the power for steel. IMHO using period manuals and using full speed/power rattan to train for full speed pulled power steel is the way to go.
Maybe some people are bumping up speed with waisters, but if people are going to use full power, I'd recommend they be armored and I know most folks aren't doing that. Armor changes how you move, your balance and your motion. So when I see unarmored waister combat, I don't believe that it more realistically replicates the kind of period armored combat that Vitus is trying to achieve. And realistically, we don't have any manuals early enough to cover sword and shield type combat that is the primary form in the SCA.
With steel IMHO, you just can't use full SCA force competing with unfamiliar opponents safely. The armor damage even with pulled blows in steel can be extreme. Recall the crease Jeff got in his helm at the last Adrian event he fought in? That was not as hard as a full force SCA blow. At least Jeff has the skills and equipment to fix that kind of damage regularly, not everyone does. A lot of Adrian armor looks like crap because the snot has been beat out of it (and some just IS crap, but thats another issue.)
I've seen Bill and Jeff do some armored sparring and at least when I saw them they were not even close to full speed/power with steel. People who fight together regularly can accomplish full speed/full power with steel if they are not competing for a "win", so I wouldn't be surprised if they do speed up for other occasions, but not when I saw them. Bill even told me that he was not interested in doing competitive steel fighting.
I certainly would not be interested in fighting full power with steel, in our case unsharpened sharps and rebated mass weapons and thrusties (1.5" balls or 1" flat). I know that Sir Arion could kill someone right through their helmet with a real sword if he used full force. I wouldn't even want to think of what would happen if he was trying to hit full force with a rebated poleaxe! There are other SCA fighters that could do the same. I'm sure Sir Rhys could and many others. Steel can stick quite well on armor if thrown right. It causes interesting dents and gashes in steel.
To me full force steel would be a scary thing.
The type of realism is different between steel and rattan, but each has its limitations. IMHO, steel certainly has a better aesthetic, and some groups that allow grappling can allow a few more period moves (though even those are limited by safety.) The sound and feel of a steel spear, mace, sword or axe is pretty awesome.
Rattan combat tends to be a bit more realistic to train and replicate the physical mechanics of power and speed generation, if appropriately weighted and balanced weapons are used. If people wore realistic armor and certain modifications in rules were made to allow some period moves, SCA combat could do a very decent job at replication of the martial art and physical aspects of foot combat that Vitus seems to be striving for. This seems to be happening in some Tournament companies already at their private events. (But no matter which way you cut it, rattan will always look ugly..) The violence of SCA combat in wars with hundreds of combatants is probably not safely replicable using live steel. Not one re-enacting group I've seen comes close to that kind of violent physicality, where people are smashing, charging and hitting with all out force.
So I enjoy both types of combat for different reasons and feel that both recreate aspects the other cannot.
Juliana
[This message has been edited by FrauHirsch (edited 06-05-2002).]
<B>Somewhere along the way, this became a rattan vs. steel argument- folks, we've seen this one before. Amazingly enough, most longtime SCA types think rattan is more realistic, whereas everyone else thinks steel/waster training is. Who would have guessed? [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well David, as you know, even for steel we train with rattan, because IMHO there is an element of danger that makes training more limited when using steel. You need control for steel, but IMHO, you can't learn full speed control without full speed fighting, so training/fighting in steel always needs something "held back". This makes using steel hard to teach certain things which would make combat more realistic.
I'd rather train the full power/speed with rattan and then back off the power for steel. IMHO using period manuals and using full speed/power rattan to train for full speed pulled power steel is the way to go.
Maybe some people are bumping up speed with waisters, but if people are going to use full power, I'd recommend they be armored and I know most folks aren't doing that. Armor changes how you move, your balance and your motion. So when I see unarmored waister combat, I don't believe that it more realistically replicates the kind of period armored combat that Vitus is trying to achieve. And realistically, we don't have any manuals early enough to cover sword and shield type combat that is the primary form in the SCA.
With steel IMHO, you just can't use full SCA force competing with unfamiliar opponents safely. The armor damage even with pulled blows in steel can be extreme. Recall the crease Jeff got in his helm at the last Adrian event he fought in? That was not as hard as a full force SCA blow. At least Jeff has the skills and equipment to fix that kind of damage regularly, not everyone does. A lot of Adrian armor looks like crap because the snot has been beat out of it (and some just IS crap, but thats another issue.)
I've seen Bill and Jeff do some armored sparring and at least when I saw them they were not even close to full speed/power with steel. People who fight together regularly can accomplish full speed/full power with steel if they are not competing for a "win", so I wouldn't be surprised if they do speed up for other occasions, but not when I saw them. Bill even told me that he was not interested in doing competitive steel fighting.
I certainly would not be interested in fighting full power with steel, in our case unsharpened sharps and rebated mass weapons and thrusties (1.5" balls or 1" flat). I know that Sir Arion could kill someone right through their helmet with a real sword if he used full force. I wouldn't even want to think of what would happen if he was trying to hit full force with a rebated poleaxe! There are other SCA fighters that could do the same. I'm sure Sir Rhys could and many others. Steel can stick quite well on armor if thrown right. It causes interesting dents and gashes in steel.
To me full force steel would be a scary thing.
The type of realism is different between steel and rattan, but each has its limitations. IMHO, steel certainly has a better aesthetic, and some groups that allow grappling can allow a few more period moves (though even those are limited by safety.) The sound and feel of a steel spear, mace, sword or axe is pretty awesome.
Rattan combat tends to be a bit more realistic to train and replicate the physical mechanics of power and speed generation, if appropriately weighted and balanced weapons are used. If people wore realistic armor and certain modifications in rules were made to allow some period moves, SCA combat could do a very decent job at replication of the martial art and physical aspects of foot combat that Vitus seems to be striving for. This seems to be happening in some Tournament companies already at their private events. (But no matter which way you cut it, rattan will always look ugly..) The violence of SCA combat in wars with hundreds of combatants is probably not safely replicable using live steel. Not one re-enacting group I've seen comes close to that kind of violent physicality, where people are smashing, charging and hitting with all out force.
So I enjoy both types of combat for different reasons and feel that both recreate aspects the other cannot.
Juliana
[This message has been edited by FrauHirsch (edited 06-05-2002).]
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Clifford Galbraith
- New Member
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- Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Las Vegas Nevada
Very well stated Mr Bjorn. Having fought both types of 'psuedo combat' (steel and rattan), both have thier place and thier own difficulties. I truly like steel combat at tourney speed and I agree with many that it is quite different than rattan batton fighting. That takes nothing away from rattan...it is just different. Steel combat has a higher incendence of injury but I think that is because more of that type of combat is done in early period re-enactment vs late. When in late period gear, the danger of injury is of course lessened dramatically simply because the gear is designed to deflect the weapon better.
I agree with Vitus....it takes work and you have to decide what you are wanting to accomplish. I've put a lot of work into both my personna in the SCA and my fighting ability.
I feel the accurate portrayal of a personna is much more difficult by far. I didn't start out that way...but because of influence of other peoples attempting such feats...I found I appreciated my game more if I did the similar thing with my persona representation.
I love the combat training and I love battle. Whether in steel or rattan, personal combat is exillerating and damn near a drug. I have been training in combat of some sort for over 40 years now. Who ever said, we are not trying to kill is correct. Very few training scenarios are deadly unless someting goes dreadfully wrong. Dangerous yes, deadly no.
Books are wonderful to give ideas of what was taught, but actual fighting is so much more than just re-creating what some other instructor attempted to put to words. I appreciate Davids comments ala trench digger techniques (they teach those by the way in the Marines). Our biggest problem in trying to recreate any battle technique from the times is that the books are all later in period...very good, but later. If I have a question as to whether a technique will work I try it both with steel and club. Some work, some fail the steel test, very few fail the clubing test.
That being said, both types of combat are not at full speed no matter what people try to say. The SCA does not fight at full speed full power...if they did...most would not play at all. The armour cannot take that kind of punnishment for long. In rattan fighting, the weapon cannot take that kind of punishment for long. If I go full speed, rattan explodes on impact...I have been known to shear rattan on many an occasion. If I go full speed, I break people. I was banned from fighting SCA for 6 months because of 'excessive force'. This is not to brag, but to use as an example...no one fights at full speed...it is too dangerous and we like our foes/friends to get up and try again whether it be steel or rattan.
As for the horse/armour comment...Chief you are correct it is not the same as foot battle and just the training of the mount alone is much work...I own horses.
M'lady Gwen, that battle looks wicked. It looks rough and it looks real. The horses are very well trained let alone the men. Not many horses will take the 'evil horse eating stick/sword' near thier heads and stay in one place. I applaud those two men and who ever trained thier mounts. I am currently training a mount for lance and it is an experience....evil little sticks they are...my horse knows this.
------------------
An oath, like an arrow, can not be recalled once loosed....think well before uttering such bindings and then stand fast to them.
I agree with Vitus....it takes work and you have to decide what you are wanting to accomplish. I've put a lot of work into both my personna in the SCA and my fighting ability.
I feel the accurate portrayal of a personna is much more difficult by far. I didn't start out that way...but because of influence of other peoples attempting such feats...I found I appreciated my game more if I did the similar thing with my persona representation.
I love the combat training and I love battle. Whether in steel or rattan, personal combat is exillerating and damn near a drug. I have been training in combat of some sort for over 40 years now. Who ever said, we are not trying to kill is correct. Very few training scenarios are deadly unless someting goes dreadfully wrong. Dangerous yes, deadly no.
Books are wonderful to give ideas of what was taught, but actual fighting is so much more than just re-creating what some other instructor attempted to put to words. I appreciate Davids comments ala trench digger techniques (they teach those by the way in the Marines). Our biggest problem in trying to recreate any battle technique from the times is that the books are all later in period...very good, but later. If I have a question as to whether a technique will work I try it both with steel and club. Some work, some fail the steel test, very few fail the clubing test.
That being said, both types of combat are not at full speed no matter what people try to say. The SCA does not fight at full speed full power...if they did...most would not play at all. The armour cannot take that kind of punnishment for long. In rattan fighting, the weapon cannot take that kind of punishment for long. If I go full speed, rattan explodes on impact...I have been known to shear rattan on many an occasion. If I go full speed, I break people. I was banned from fighting SCA for 6 months because of 'excessive force'. This is not to brag, but to use as an example...no one fights at full speed...it is too dangerous and we like our foes/friends to get up and try again whether it be steel or rattan.
As for the horse/armour comment...Chief you are correct it is not the same as foot battle and just the training of the mount alone is much work...I own horses.
M'lady Gwen, that battle looks wicked. It looks rough and it looks real. The horses are very well trained let alone the men. Not many horses will take the 'evil horse eating stick/sword' near thier heads and stay in one place. I applaud those two men and who ever trained thier mounts. I am currently training a mount for lance and it is an experience....evil little sticks they are...my horse knows this.
------------------
An oath, like an arrow, can not be recalled once loosed....think well before uttering such bindings and then stand fast to them.
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chef de chambre
- Archive Member
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Hi All,
Vitus, what I am getting at is you are making an artificial divide between the two aspects. You have gotten into your head that reenactors primarily put on a show for the public, and are purely visual.
This just isn't true, and tells me that you have not experienced reenactment. Many reenactors are seeking precisely what you are, and find it in 'full immersion' events. It isn't just fighting, it is living as exactly like the person you are portraying would have 500 years or more ago. They are "seeking the moment" when there is no suspension of disbelief, when they can lose themselves in obtaining a few moments of stepping back in time.
There is so much more out there, if you were just willing to try for it. What you find only in fighting, I find in every aspect (including fighting) of reenactment. The experience continues on for me past the swords and other shiney bits, it lasts all day, and all night.
I know what it feels like to lead a file of foragers down a dirt path, with mounted men bringing up the rear, the creak and rattle of harness and leather, the feel of a weapon on the shoulder, the ache of wearing harness not for a few moments, or a half hour at a time, but hour on end, and in all sorts of weather. I have knelt to recieve a blessing from a clergyman before facing possible battle, with a line of other good medieval catholics besides me. I have eaten what my counterpart would have hundreds of years ago, cooked over a fire. I have orn his clothes, and literally walked a mile in his shoes.
I have been able to have these experiences without seeing a single tennis shoe or engineer boot, or stray bit of synthetic cloth.
I can understand the validity of the experience you feel fighting - ever get into a genuine fistfight (it got a little out of hand)over your country's colors with your battery being overrun by hundreds of johnnies, with thousands more behind them and onto every side, musketry and cannonfire leaving a blanket of rolling smoke across the countryside? It puts you "right there" so to speak - I understand. What you have written however makes me sure you have not felt the full experience possible.
It doesn't make your experience any less valid, it just means that what I am trying to do is like describing the taste of chocolate to a man who has never tasted it, but from hearing others has come up with his own notion of how it tastes.
------------------
Bob R.
Vitus, what I am getting at is you are making an artificial divide between the two aspects. You have gotten into your head that reenactors primarily put on a show for the public, and are purely visual.
This just isn't true, and tells me that you have not experienced reenactment. Many reenactors are seeking precisely what you are, and find it in 'full immersion' events. It isn't just fighting, it is living as exactly like the person you are portraying would have 500 years or more ago. They are "seeking the moment" when there is no suspension of disbelief, when they can lose themselves in obtaining a few moments of stepping back in time.
There is so much more out there, if you were just willing to try for it. What you find only in fighting, I find in every aspect (including fighting) of reenactment. The experience continues on for me past the swords and other shiney bits, it lasts all day, and all night.
I know what it feels like to lead a file of foragers down a dirt path, with mounted men bringing up the rear, the creak and rattle of harness and leather, the feel of a weapon on the shoulder, the ache of wearing harness not for a few moments, or a half hour at a time, but hour on end, and in all sorts of weather. I have knelt to recieve a blessing from a clergyman before facing possible battle, with a line of other good medieval catholics besides me. I have eaten what my counterpart would have hundreds of years ago, cooked over a fire. I have orn his clothes, and literally walked a mile in his shoes.
I have been able to have these experiences without seeing a single tennis shoe or engineer boot, or stray bit of synthetic cloth.
I can understand the validity of the experience you feel fighting - ever get into a genuine fistfight (it got a little out of hand)over your country's colors with your battery being overrun by hundreds of johnnies, with thousands more behind them and onto every side, musketry and cannonfire leaving a blanket of rolling smoke across the countryside? It puts you "right there" so to speak - I understand. What you have written however makes me sure you have not felt the full experience possible.
It doesn't make your experience any less valid, it just means that what I am trying to do is like describing the taste of chocolate to a man who has never tasted it, but from hearing others has come up with his own notion of how it tastes.
------------------
Bob R.
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gwen:
[b]Please allow me to point out that I have no beef with the SCA or it’s combat conventions. I’m not here to rain on anybody’s parade and tell you what you’re doing is wrong. IMO if you love what you’re doing as much as Vitus and Rhys love it, then keep doing it and don’t apologize. I only posted the picture because I felt it unfair to insinuate that reenactors only stand around to be admired, and that our equipment is only there for show. I also felt compelled to refute Rhys’ statement that reenactors “*don't* have to do all the things in armor that a real knight had to doâ€
[b]Please allow me to point out that I have no beef with the SCA or it’s combat conventions. I’m not here to rain on anybody’s parade and tell you what you’re doing is wrong. IMO if you love what you’re doing as much as Vitus and Rhys love it, then keep doing it and don’t apologize. I only posted the picture because I felt it unfair to insinuate that reenactors only stand around to be admired, and that our equipment is only there for show. I also felt compelled to refute Rhys’ statement that reenactors “*don't* have to do all the things in armor that a real knight had to doâ€
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bascot:
Now you are comparing fighting in armour[b]on horseback to your little stick-games? You are lost in your fantasy. Goodbye, little dreamer....Good bye..... [/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What a little coward. How easy it is to insult someone when you haven't the courage to back it up. Care to meet me in the lists, little man?
First, Yes, I *am* comparing my sport to riding around in armor. All I said was that if you're going to fight *competitvely* you need more out of your harness than weaklings like you who just stand around pretending to be mighty warriors.
Reading a book doesn't make you a warrior, Bascot, practicing those skills in a realistic manner does, and that means doing it *competitively*. So, are you up for it?
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
[This message has been edited by SyrRhys (edited 06-05-2002).]
Now you are comparing fighting in armour[b]on horseback to your little stick-games? You are lost in your fantasy. Goodbye, little dreamer....Good bye..... [/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What a little coward. How easy it is to insult someone when you haven't the courage to back it up. Care to meet me in the lists, little man?
First, Yes, I *am* comparing my sport to riding around in armor. All I said was that if you're going to fight *competitvely* you need more out of your harness than weaklings like you who just stand around pretending to be mighty warriors.
Reading a book doesn't make you a warrior, Bascot, practicing those skills in a realistic manner does, and that means doing it *competitively*. So, are you up for it?
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
[This message has been edited by SyrRhys (edited 06-05-2002).]
Is it just me, or is this turning into a pissing match?
I concur with the thoughts expressed in Vitus' first post in this thread.
For what the thread has become... I've seen the same when I talk with someone from a non-USJA (united states judo association) school, or any other jujitsu practitioner.
People fight different ways because it's what suits them.
I concur with the thoughts expressed in Vitus' first post in this thread.
For what the thread has become... I've seen the same when I talk with someone from a non-USJA (united states judo association) school, or any other jujitsu practitioner.
People fight different ways because it's what suits them.
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Derian le Breton
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Murdock:
Does anyone have any evidence that the Vikings ever brought _any_ Scralings back?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Skraelings, but yeah. Hell, we're not even sure that they *met* any Native Americans. The most solid piece of evidence is a single 11th century norse penny (I belive it was Norwegian, I'll have to check) that was found in a 14th century Native American settlement.
Lans aux Meadows shows us that Scandiavians certainly did end up in North America, but they stayed for probably less than ten years.
-Donasian.
(Edit - forgot the word "penny"
)
[This message has been edited by Donasian (edited 06-05-2002).]
Does anyone have any evidence that the Vikings ever brought _any_ Scralings back?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Skraelings, but yeah. Hell, we're not even sure that they *met* any Native Americans. The most solid piece of evidence is a single 11th century norse penny (I belive it was Norwegian, I'll have to check) that was found in a 14th century Native American settlement.
Lans aux Meadows shows us that Scandiavians certainly did end up in North America, but they stayed for probably less than ten years.
-Donasian.
(Edit - forgot the word "penny"
)[This message has been edited by Donasian (edited 06-05-2002).]
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JJ Shred
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Always first with the name-calling huh, "Sir" Rhys? "Never rassle with a pig, you both get dirty, and the pig likes it."
So give me the scenareo, tough guy. Do I have to join the SCA, get authorized, drive 600 miles to meet you on your terms? Or are you going to stand in a field with your rattan "sword" while I run 1500 lbs. of horseflesh over your transfixed (with my lance) body? Grow up. You aren't going to do shit. You're the coward for making threats from the safety of your computer in your locked home.
p.s. Why did you have to ruin Vitus's thread with your idle threats?
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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"
So give me the scenareo, tough guy. Do I have to join the SCA, get authorized, drive 600 miles to meet you on your terms? Or are you going to stand in a field with your rattan "sword" while I run 1500 lbs. of horseflesh over your transfixed (with my lance) body? Grow up. You aren't going to do shit. You're the coward for making threats from the safety of your computer in your locked home.
p.s. Why did you have to ruin Vitus's thread with your idle threats?
------------------
Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"
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Clifford Galbraith
- New Member
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Las Vegas Nevada
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SyrRhys:
<B> What a little coward. How easy it is to insult someone when you haven't the courage to back it up. Care to meet me in the lists, little man?
First, Yes, I *am* comparing my sport to riding around in armor. All I said was that if you're going to fight *competitvely* you need more out of your harness than weaklings like you who just stand around pretending to be mighty warriors.
Reading a book doesn't make you a warrior, Bascot, practicing those skills in a realistic manner does, and that means doing it *competitively*. So, are you up for it?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First, I don't normally get into who has the biggest winky on the field...it is usually pretty childish and reminds me of my own children in the car on a long trip...not a happy memeory. But I think some people need to haul back and get a grip:
Ok, Rhys...take a valium...cool down and think a bit. You are way off line here.
Insults are very period and of course your exclimation of cowardice is also...but your claim of warrior status? Weekend maybe.
Judging from your pictures...you need to loose a bit of the tire around the middle just like many in our sport. Unless you are well over 40, I have been training and fighting longer than you have been alive. Sit down junior and listen...
Ok, sarcasm is off...did it sound nice? No? Well your explosion didn't either and it does us in the SCA to act the fool. Unless you know Bascot personally and know you can whip his ass sideways...you might just get your head handed to you on a platter. Your arguments have had merit, but lets at least be civil about it. You pride yourself in being a Knight...well then at least be courteous....not chivalrous.
And yes, if you feel your honor must be defended in battle, then, if you wish, I can meet you on the field...if you come to Lilies of course. I cannot be at Pennsic this year...sorry...no job and I just live bout an hour away from KC. I would love to be there...I miss Jehan...my sword brother. I will fight you in any style you wish, any weapon you wish or we can just fight with our respective period weapons. I will fight at what ever power level you wish. What ever we dance with...lets just have fun and leave the insults to the children.
Bascot? You need also to take a bit of the calm down drug....do not rise to the bait. This is not helping on wit as to who's winky is biggest...that is not the reason for the thread is it? ..besides...running a perfectly good horse over all that metal could hurt the horse. Think of the Vet bills if nothing else!
Oh, on another completely different tack...Chef? I love your discription of battle! I wish I was closer to where you are...I would love to play your game and I even think I could enjoy the late period (for me anyway) attire. It sounds very interesting. I actually do know what it is like for living history requirements...I recreate a professional hunter of 1876 Montana in another game and a scout for a fur trade expidition of 1826.
Now if I can just get this damned Orkney viking of 980 down pat....
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An oath, like an arrow, can not be recalled once loosed....think well before uttering such bindings and then stand fast to them.
[This message has been edited by Clifford Galbraith (edited 06-05-2002).]
<B> What a little coward. How easy it is to insult someone when you haven't the courage to back it up. Care to meet me in the lists, little man?
First, Yes, I *am* comparing my sport to riding around in armor. All I said was that if you're going to fight *competitvely* you need more out of your harness than weaklings like you who just stand around pretending to be mighty warriors.
Reading a book doesn't make you a warrior, Bascot, practicing those skills in a realistic manner does, and that means doing it *competitively*. So, are you up for it?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First, I don't normally get into who has the biggest winky on the field...it is usually pretty childish and reminds me of my own children in the car on a long trip...not a happy memeory. But I think some people need to haul back and get a grip:
Ok, Rhys...take a valium...cool down and think a bit. You are way off line here.
Insults are very period and of course your exclimation of cowardice is also...but your claim of warrior status? Weekend maybe.
Judging from your pictures...you need to loose a bit of the tire around the middle just like many in our sport. Unless you are well over 40, I have been training and fighting longer than you have been alive. Sit down junior and listen...
Ok, sarcasm is off...did it sound nice? No? Well your explosion didn't either and it does us in the SCA to act the fool. Unless you know Bascot personally and know you can whip his ass sideways...you might just get your head handed to you on a platter. Your arguments have had merit, but lets at least be civil about it. You pride yourself in being a Knight...well then at least be courteous....not chivalrous.
And yes, if you feel your honor must be defended in battle, then, if you wish, I can meet you on the field...if you come to Lilies of course. I cannot be at Pennsic this year...sorry...no job and I just live bout an hour away from KC. I would love to be there...I miss Jehan...my sword brother. I will fight you in any style you wish, any weapon you wish or we can just fight with our respective period weapons. I will fight at what ever power level you wish. What ever we dance with...lets just have fun and leave the insults to the children.
Bascot? You need also to take a bit of the calm down drug....do not rise to the bait. This is not helping on wit as to who's winky is biggest...that is not the reason for the thread is it? ..besides...running a perfectly good horse over all that metal could hurt the horse. Think of the Vet bills if nothing else!
Oh, on another completely different tack...Chef? I love your discription of battle! I wish I was closer to where you are...I would love to play your game and I even think I could enjoy the late period (for me anyway) attire. It sounds very interesting. I actually do know what it is like for living history requirements...I recreate a professional hunter of 1876 Montana in another game and a scout for a fur trade expidition of 1826.
Now if I can just get this damned Orkney viking of 980 down pat....
------------------
An oath, like an arrow, can not be recalled once loosed....think well before uttering such bindings and then stand fast to them.
[This message has been edited by Clifford Galbraith (edited 06-05-2002).]
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SyrRhys
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1980
- Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: San Bernardino, CA
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bascot:
Always first with the name-calling huh, "Sir" Rhys?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I'm not first with the insults. I didn't even mention you until you insulted me.
Oh, and show me a single instance in which I've signed my name with any rank. I use my real name, thanks.
You don't have to get authorized, all you have to do is come to some place where I am. And what makes you think I have to fight on foot? I'll bet I have ten times the time in a saddle you do. But even so, I *will* fight you afoot.
You ruined it with your sophmoric rantings, not I, and I didn't make a single threat. I made a challenge.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
Always first with the name-calling huh, "Sir" Rhys?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I'm not first with the insults. I didn't even mention you until you insulted me.
Oh, and show me a single instance in which I've signed my name with any rank. I use my real name, thanks.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So give me the scenareo, tough guy. Do I have to join the SCA, get authorized, drive 600 miles to meet you on your terms? Or are you going to stand in a field with your rattan "sword" while I run 1500 lbs. of horseflesh over your transfixed (with my lance) body? Grow up. You aren't going to do shit. You're the coward for making threats from the safety of your computer in your locked home.</font>
You don't have to get authorized, all you have to do is come to some place where I am. And what makes you think I have to fight on foot? I'll bet I have ten times the time in a saddle you do. But even so, I *will* fight you afoot.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">p.s. Why did you have to ruin Vitus's thread with your idle threats?</font>
You ruined it with your sophmoric rantings, not I, and I didn't make a single threat. I made a challenge.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"