Gambesons and Cotehardies and pourpoints, OH MY!

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 12:42 pm

Quick accuracy question here. In the research I have done, I have not seen anything to indicate either...

Button holes....which is more accurate, horizontal or vertical?

------------------
"It is not the oath that gives me faith in the man, but the man that gives me faith in the oath."
With Honor,
Kenwrec Wulfe
Squire to Sir Galen of Bristol
The 1/2 Scottish, 1/2 Norman, English-raised Irishman of the Early-Late Mid Period.

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:00 pm

Check out the Museum of London book - lots and lots of horizontal buttonholes. Also, the Charles VI cote armor shows a horizontal buttonhole on the lower part where one of the buttons is missing. The Charles de Blois pourpoint also has horizontal buttonholes - what you can see of them. That's three sources; anybody else got more?

Gwyneth

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gwyneth:
That's three sources; anybody else got more?
Gwyneth<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All excellent ones. On the 'art' side, you can also take a look at Margaret Scott's _A Visual History of Costume: The 14th and 15th Centuries_ for a few images of sculpture depicting horizontal buttonholes on men's clothing. There are, in fact, multiple artistic sources you can use as high-integrity 'secondary' sources to bolster the information known about the extant garments.

Depends on whether or not you want to make it a project to collect examples of art that specifically depicts buttonholes on male garments, though. The Scott book is a good place to start.

Also, quick note on exactly WHY horizontal buttonholes make more sense: If there's any tension on the buttoned garment's closure, a horizontally-placed hole will only feel the stress at one point -- the end-point of the buttonhole that is closest to the closure edge -- which can be reinforced easily with thread/floss and buttonhole stitch. If the buttonholes were placed vertically, the stress would pull on the entire side of the buttonhole, including the weaker end-points, which would increase the likelihood over time of ripping them. Not to mention increases the risk of gaping, showing what lies underneath.

No matter how much stress lies on buttonholes placed horizontally (or more accurately "perpendicular to the closure edge"), they won't gape open, unless you make the common mistake of following the directions the MoL folks give us for creating our own buttons with the fabric of the button becoming part of the shank. Once you try this, you'll quickly see that the shank is almost as thick as the button and not useful at all. I'm still puzzled about that, especially given the close-up photos of buttons that clearly show the method the authors diagramed as being impossible. The extant buttons in that book have very narrow thread-created shanks, as far as I can tell.

-Marcele

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:42 pm

Quick follow-up on my mention of buttons. Here are some diagrams I cooked up a while back to explain how to make self-stuffed buttons:

[img]http://www.cottesimple.com/misc/cloth_buttons1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.cottesimple.com/misc/cloth_buttons2.jpg[/img]

You'd then use your sewing thread to sew the ball (button) directly onto the garment, sewing a loop between the two pieces over and over again, finishing by wrapping the sewing thread around the shank over and over again until the shank becomes sturdy.

-Marcele
Edited to fix UBBCode.

[This message has been edited by Marcele (edited 10-08-2003).]

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:06 pm

I was also shown a way to do cloth buttons with a square piece of fabric. If you use square pieces, part of the fabric *can* form part of the shank, but it isn't much. I like the thread shank better, frankly.

Gwyneth

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:54 pm

As always... you ladies are amazing...thank you.

It made sense to me to make horizontal button holes, but I just wanted to be sure it was correct. I am just starting to gather my materials to make all three of those mentioned garments and was just needin a wee bit more.

Thank you again.

------------------
"It is not the oath that gives me faith in the man, but the man that gives me faith in the oath."
With Honor,
Kenwrec Wulfe
Squire to Sir Galen of Bristol
The 1/2 Scottish, 1/2 Norman, English-raised Irishman of the Early-Late Mid Period.

kass · Post by **kass** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:21 pm

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen a vertical buttonhole. Modern or medieval. Not an eyelet -- something for a button.

Anyone?

Kass

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 4:08 pm

Kass -

Just went and checked my closet. Every single button-down shirt I own has vertical buttonholes. All my husbands shirts too. Maybe it's a modern labor-saving innovation? Maybe that's how the machines are set up to make them?

Gwyneth

Christopher Anselm · Post by **Christopher Anselm** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 4:17 pm

I bet it is faster for the amchines to do them that way. They wouldn't have to re-orient the fabric so much.

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 4:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gwyneth:
I was also shown a way to do cloth buttons with a square piece of fabric. If you use square pieces, part of the fabric *can* form part of the shank, but it isn't much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use a combination of square fabric, but with the same method as Marcele. Once you tuck the edges into the center, it doesn't matter if you start with a circle, square or octagon. And squares are much easier to cut out.

-Charlotte

kass · Post by **kass** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 4:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gwyneth:
Every single button-down shirt I own has vertical buttonholes. All my husbands shirts too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh. I meant down the front opening. They are horizonal down the front, are they not?

It's no harder or easier for a machine to do buttonholes vertically or horizontally. The machine doesn't care which direction it's pointing. You just set it for whichever you like.

Kass

lacheadon · Post by **lacheadon** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 4:45 pm

On a somewhat side note, you know how on the buttoning men's shirts overlap from left to right and on ladies it is the other way around; was this true for all time? And does anyone knoe where the trend started?

It was only pointed out to me the other day, and has me somewhat confused. I never noticed it before.

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:12 pm

So far, the limited buttonhole evidence I have says medieval buttonhole = horizontal to the ground; modern buttonhole = vertical to the ground. Although, come to think of it, buttonholes on pants are horizontal to the ground. Maybe it it because they take more stress than buttonholes on shirts? Maybe the design of the buttonhole has more to do with the amount of stress it is designed to take than with the type of garment it is on? Cotehardies and the like are pretty fitted, so it would make sense that the buttonholes are designed to take more stress than a modern dress shirt.

Gwyneth

kass · Post by **kass** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 5:21 pm

Modern suit jackets also have horizontal buttonholes. I think the aberration is the shirts, not the other way around.

Lach, I once hear that men's shirts (and flies) lap left to right because they started dressing themselves quite early on in history and women still had waiting women to dress them. If you think about this, it is easier for a right handed man to button his shirt or zip his fly, but a right-handed woman has to bedn her wrist around to do it. It's not a big problem, but it is a little more awkward. Of course we women have been doing it this was since birth (unless we wear men's jeans), so we're used to it.

I don't know if that story is true or not. But it does make sense.

To the point, all the 16th and 17th century doublets I've been studying lap left to right. Unfortunately, women's jackets in this time period generally hook or tie closed and therefore don't overlap at all.

One wonders...

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:09 am

What is the best shape and type of material to stuff the cloth buttons with the get a good round shape? square sections, round ones or does it not matter?

------------------
"It is not the oath that gives me faith in the man, but the man that gives me faith in the oath."
With Honor,
Kenwrec Wulfe
Squire to Sir Galen of Bristol
The 1/2 Scottish, 1/2 Norman, English-raised Irishman of the Early-Late Mid Period.

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 9:11 am

I don't think the shape you start with really matters - the difference is in the skill of the person making the buttons. If this is your first attempt, don't expect to get them perfectly round right off the bat.

Besides, the extant buttons in the MoL book are not uniformly round, nor are they all the same exact size either. It's definitely period to have variation in the shape and size of your buttons. As long as you make them out of the same cloth as your main garment, and you get them more or less the same size and general shape, you ought to be OK.

Gwyneth

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:26 am

One little tip -- don't pre-full your wool, if using wool to make buttons. I did this and got the thickest, springiest fabric imaginable and it resulted in unbearable frustration. Those buttons are rather mishapen, every last one, and VERY hard to get 'hard', which is the best finished state to have for a button, as it's easier to push through a buttonhole than a soft one.

-Tasha

kass · Post by **kass** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:45 am

Extension to the above statement:

Don't pre-full your wool IF it's loosely woven. I always full my wool before cutting into it and fulled wool actually helped me make better buttons because the edges didn't ravel.

Kass

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kass:
Extension to the above statement:

Don't pre-full your wool IF it's loosely woven. I always full my wool before cutting into it and fulled wool actually helped me make better buttons because the edges didn't ravel.

Kass<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have edges showing on a finished button, that would make an unraveling edge a liability? I'm curious why this would be a problem.

I've had much better luck with the button itself if the fabric is unfulled. The only conundrum, is that I *prefer* to use fabric scraps for buttons, and it doesn't really work if I cut the buttons first.

-Charlotte

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 3:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Wulfe:
What is the best shape and type of material to stuff the cloth buttons with the get a good round shape? square sections, round ones or does it not matter?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Tasha's diagram, and what I'm doing, both involve self stuffing the buttons. So, if you're using wool, it's stuffed with wool. Silk for silk, etc. I've had luck with square and round starting shapes. I'm just lazy and don't like to cut all the little circles.
The trick I've always found to a well formed button is patience. You'll get better with them as you practice, I promise. And spend time with each one. Keep stiching until it looks right. But as Gwyneth wisely said, they'll never all look perfect anyway!
Good luck!

Cheers,
Charlotte

kass · Post by **kass** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 3:08 pm

When you put the needle in near the edge to make the tiny running stitches to draw the circle of material into a little sac, having fulled fabric make them more structurally sound so the needle doesn't go through the side accidentally.

I don't cut out my buttons and then full them. I full all the cloth at once and then make the garment and use scraps for buttons. I've never done it any other way and I've never had a problem with thick or uneven buttons.

That being said, I recognize the fact that I've gotten really luck with fabric. I have a knack of always finding the right four-shaft twill for the job. I have friends who could tell horror stories about their fabric shrinking 1/2 yard when they full it, but mine never shrinks more than a couple or three inches. So the fulled fabric isn't significantly thicker than the unfulled. It's just got less ravelly edges.

Kass

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kass:
That being said, I recognize the fact that I've gotten really luck with fabric. I have a knack of always finding the right four-shaft twill for the job.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never can seem to find the right stuff. Where in SE PA do you get your wool?

-Charlotte

kass · Post by **kass** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:04 am

Jo-Mar in Lansale. Check it out. They have some great stuff there. But you have to go and check it pretty regularly for wool flannel.

Good luck!

Kass