multiple thrusting tips.

Llywelyn · Post by **Llywelyn** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:40 pm

Greetings,

I was under the impression that one could not have thrusting tips on the bottom or on the quillions of a single handed sword. But after reading the rules (of the east kingdom where I am) I can see no such thing prohibited. Am I missing something? Does anyone know of such a rule that forbids or otherwise addresses multiple thrusting tips?

Thanks very much.

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Stay open minded, but not so open minded that your brains fall out.

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I am neater with a 5lbs. cross pein than with a ball point pen!

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 2:06 am

Better check with the marshals there.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 5:51 am

this belies my eventual goal, and why I like the unpadded glave rules.

I want a REAL two handed sword. Imagine a 5-6 foot stick of rattan with cast rubber quilons and a pommell. pokey tip on the pommell, as well as the head. With that type of weapon, one could half sword, murder stroke, etc. It would greatly increase a more period style of GS fighting. Of course, given my skill level, i wouldnt be too good at it, but just imagine the look on the face of the guy who takes the first murder stroke....

-+G

Noe · Post by **Noe** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:13 am

Although it would complicate things beyond the mental capacity of the average fighter to deal with, I would like to see a second class of buttspike, one only effective to the face. Let's face it, spikes on the bottom of your sword and on the hafts of most axes really indicate that you are using a blunt instument, only without the crushng power of a mace. Against armour, it don't see it as being an effective killing stroke. However, against what we consider to be lightly armoured or unarmoured faced, they would be killing shots.

What do you think?

Vogeljager · Post by **Vogeljager** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:29 am

"As of October 1st, 2001, the East Kingdom is now using the Society rules."
- Eastkingdom.org

Out of curiosity I re-read the rules myself and there is nothing that says you can't! The only points of note are;
- thrusting tips must be 2"
- A pole arm cannot have a cut/smash head on both ends (a butt-spike is ok)
- all projections must be padded and/or 1 1/4" diameter.

However, when in doubt talk to your marshall and/or bring in an experimental weapon (properly marked as such). and be extra carefull when thrusting with the quillions (hurt someone the first time out and it will be banned for sure, if only locally)

Note - If you ask first the Marshall may dismiss the idea out of hand. If you bring the sword with you he may be intrigued enough to at least let you play with it first.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 10:52 am

Rev. George

The group I am in we have both rattan and shinia combat. We consider shinia battlefield and rattan tourny fighting. I am a Landskneckt and use a Zweihander and I always turn my sword over and strike with the guards. I whant to figure a way to do it in rattan and you just gave me the awnser. A rubber guard.

Flonzy

sedric · Post by **sedric** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:01 pm

We have been using thrusting tips(but-spikes) on great swords for about 5 months or so in our shire. If some one gets inside your "comfort zone" just close in and use it to face thrust. I fight this guy that stands 7 ft. outside of armour and uses a 6ft G. sword , talk about intimidating! It's also very usefull "christian" style.

Noe · Post by **Noe** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:21 am

Again, I have to wonder how effective the pommel would be as a weapon against someone armoured cap a pie. It might serve as a useful distraction, or as a set up to a killing blow though.

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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

theodrik · Post by **theodrik** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:55 pm

Llywelyn, I'm the West Kingdom deputy Earl marshal, so salt this down to fit your Oriental Kingdom BUT...thrusting tips on quillions aren't allowed in the West (but are in Caid, I believe) as they 'rate' at punch daggers. Weapons, such as the katar (a Hindu punchdagger) and shovel-handled pikes are no longer allowed out here as they transfer the mass of the wielder far too easily making them hit way too hard. Thrusting tip pommels are allowed, but not with weapons equipt with basket hilts. The probability of metal-to-metal is too high.

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Sir Theodrik of Skane,
West, Mists, Blackwood Company
'Lude Fortier, Lude Juste, Nemini Damnum!'

Noe · Post by **Noe** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:01 pm

Again, does everyone really think that a strike from a pommel to anywhere other than an unarmoured face is going to constitute a killing blow?

Of course, if the pommel has a spike on it, I guess maybe. And the museums are full to overflowing with swords with spikes on the pommels, right?

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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:35 pm

Noe,

I agree with you in general terms, but take the style of armor into consideration. If someone is wearing flexible armor (chainmail or just padding) a pommel to many spots of the torso would be potentially (temporarily) disabling. A big "WOOOOF!" factor.

If you refer to the fechtbooks like Talhoffer's book then most of the pommeling is between "unarmored" combatants. A murder stroke would probably be somewhat effective at least even against a fully armored opponent. Against someone with no helmet you would have splattered brains flying around.

Now a pommel against my steel Cherburg breastplate would probably just piss me off ;-)

If you refer to SCA combat then we are all supposedly wearing chainmail. Flexible armor. A pommel strike from a two handed weapon (a less than common weapon in the height of the chain maille period) would be fairly effective.

And there is NO WAY I would ever use a weapon that had a point/sharp thing that always pointed back at ME. Ick!

Kevin the Hound

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Pars Acuta in Alio (The Pointy End Goes into the Other Man)

[This message has been edited by Kevin the Hound (edited 02-25-2002).]

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 11:10 pm

Ansteorra still allows them, I saw a number of them on single handed swords this weekend.

Noe · Post by **Noe** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 5:27 am

Hmm. I see what you mean. The may actually require a bit of testing. No kidding.

I mean, with chainmail and a padded gambeson I can see the blow as being painful and distracting, and thus setting up for a killing blow, but I am not yet convinced that a pommel shot to chain and padding is a killing/disabling blow in and of itself.

We may need to test this a bit. Any volunteers?

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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 8:40 am

Noe,

Notice I used lots of weasel-words in my arguement. I agree that getting pommeled by a greatsword/bastardsword through chain mail and padding probably won't be a fight-stopper (unless you got your collar bone broken, or started tossing your cookies from a solar plexus shot, or...) but the time factor for dealing with the discomfort could be considered long enough to get you waxed.

And as I said, if you are dealing with the unarmored styles like in Talhoffer, then you would probably be rendered ineffective by a pommel strike (properly executed) to many spots on the torso. Not dead, but ineffective, which has been known to lead to deadness under certain circumstances.

Kevin the Hound

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Pars Acuta in Alio (The Pointy End Goes into the Other Man)

bela of kaffa · Post by **bela of kaffa** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 5:37 pm

i don't know about the real effect of a pommel strike, but i used to have a butt-spike on my bastard sword. I don't think i killed people with it more then once or twice, but the potential threat is a nice thing to have, and it does have an effect on your opponent... and it's good in close, in desperation... problem is, if you have a buttspike you can't have a pommel weight, and the balance of your sword, um, takes some getting used to...
bela

bela

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kevin the Hound:
Noe,

Notice I used lots of weasel-words in my arguement. I agree that getting pommeled by a greatsword/bastardsword through chain mail and padding probably won't be a fight-stopper (unless you got your collar bone broken, or started tossing your cookies from a solar plexus shot, or...) but the time factor for dealing with the discomfort could be considered long enough to get you waxed.

And as I said, if you are dealing with the unarmored styles like in Talhoffer, then you would probably be rendered ineffective by a pommel strike (properly executed) to many spots on the torso. Not dead, but ineffective, which has been known to lead to deadness under certain circumstances.

Kevin the Hound
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 6:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bela of kaffa:
... problem is, if you have a buttspike you can't have a pommel weight, and the balance of your sword, um, takes some getting used to...
bela

bela

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell me about it! I don't have a buttspike on my rattan greatsword (53 inches long, tip to pommel) though I do have a thrusting tip. I use a steel pipe cap as a pommel in order to balance it out. The sword is a little heavier than a real one, but balances pretty well. I also don't have any ricasso on it, because I don't want to provide more places for my opponent's to grab when we go corps-a-corps.

Kevin the Hound