Plate as proof -- a fun alternative rule

[Noe]

Every now and then at fighter practice, we trot out the "Plate as proof" rule. We've been having such fun with it that it has been called for with increasing regularity.

It's simple: Use your regular combat rules system, but state that plate is proof of anything less than an axe or pole arm. You cna strike it, but the only blows that count are those to lesser armour points. If you wear a full-face helm, congrats, you are proof. Plate legs ditto. My buddy fights in cap a pie plate. I can only tag him in the armpits, groin, or the back of this legs.

Fun, fun. It's _amazing_ the difference good -- or even so-so, in my case -- half-sword technique can make. Suddenly, those medieval illustrations start to make sense.

Give it a try, I think you will enjoy it (but take care with those groin shots).

[D. Sebastian]

The sphnicter IS a legal target area.

[Vladimir]

You just described the "real plate and maille" tourney at pennsic

fun aint it?

[ArtemisGreen]

Whoohoo! Let's see those plastic boys join now!!!



*runs before flame wars start*

Mr. Green

[Thorstenn]

artemis, i cant penatrate plastic with a sharp hatchet full force but i bet it can go throu mild steel


Also in those turneys is their an exsesive force rule if not I will make a goodintog = sledge-o-matic would that be aloud ?

hmm.... sledge-0-matic vrs sabatons

[Josh W]

Thorstenn, your hatchet might go through steel that is set up on a stump or something and has a solid backing. I doubt you can hack through even 18ga mild steel on a moving, soft human being. Totally different game.

[horsefriend]

we usually run our in-kingdom and often the West-Antir as plate is proof against archery. I like the concept of plate being proof against single-handed weapons, but it won't fly except for pas type situations.
We usually have enlightened enough rulers to allow as you wear for helmets in Crowns and Coronets these days though, it's a start.

alail/scott

[Animal]

That sounds like a lot of fun and I would have a blast fighting within those rules. As long as you would allow me to use period techniques against period armor. So no bitching when I knock you on your ass and shove something sharp through your eyeslits.

[Noe]

Animal-- Alas, no model ever accurately captures reality. Nevertheless, you can try to increase the reality of some aspects of any model. (Hence the photoshopping of nudie pics. ) To do so, though, always comes at a sacrifice to the reality of other aspects of a model.

Still haven't worked out how to safely grapple. When we study german grappling, the joke is that if the technique ended without a fractured bone, crushed testicle, or ruptured eyeball, you screwed it up and have to start over. Also, we keep running into trouble with the armour: Being thrown is one thing; it's when you pull the guy down on top of you that your are really in trouble.

The best model I have for the dagger in the eye is to just count face thrusts to the eye slit. Not perfect, but hey, no model is.

[Animal]

I still get that puzzled look when I hear about people 's problems with grappling. We've been punching, kicking, grappling, leaping on each other for 30 years and we dont have any more than our fair share of injuries. I love a good scrap just as much as I love a tight technical fight. I guess it's all about how immediate you're willing to be.
Funny part is the better the SCA fighter the less hesitance I have noticed to things like grappling, punching, etc. It's the general populace for the most part that seem to be troubled by such things. Just my observation.

[Noe]

Oh, most of that stuff we are willing to do, although we keep the newer guys back a bit until they settle their control issues. I'm talking about the real fechtbuch moves, where, for example, almost all of the throws involve dropping someone on their head.

I would be very interested in hearing how your handle take downs and arm locks in plate. One thing that we've noticed is that you have to be extra careful because you don't have as much sense of pressure; doing a key lock in vambraces and a closed helmet mean that you are working without much sense of touch and out of your line of sight. Do you all have a system, or do you just hope for the best?

Seriously, if you have a method, please share it because I really want to increase the amount of grappling we do.

[Vladimir]

I wouldn't have any problem with grappling rules among the people I know. But there are a lot of...shall we say "overzelous" assholes out there I don't know. And as far as I know, grappling is a very effective means of injuring an armoured man.

[Jehan de Pelham]

"So no bitching when I knock you on your ass and shove something sharp through your eyeslits."

Or when I kick you in the nuts and give you a curby.

I ain't havin' some large mammal manhandling me. I put meat on the table with this body, unlike some of our folks.

Now if a guy falls, and the rules are a more pragmatic, Charny-based chivalry, then okay, I can dig it, run up there and give him a "dead on the ground."

But this wrasslin' stuff is best left to the backyard with your close buds.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus and student of Schnicktengruben

P.S.: Plate as proof and armor as worn is an interesting concept--I can see it in my mind's eye as a lot of fun. I wonder, has the "armor rating" of participants in such contests been determined by the gallery of ladies?

[Animal]

Noe, we dont have a system as much as we have a regard for each other. I am not in the slightest against walking up to an opponent on his knees and kicking him over and killing him while he squirms. Or when someone gets in my kitchen a good punch to the grill tends to give me the room I need. We dive on each other and roll around on the ground from time to time and a good sheild punch does wonders to establish your presence from time to time. We play rough but we dont have any more injuries than the SCA does. Even given the disparity of numbers.
Jehan: this type of combat isnt for everyone. Speaking as a large mammal that manhandles people on a regular basis I can understrand your trepidation. All I can say is you do your thing and have a good time. Lots of other people out there to fight, you arent missing much with me anyway

[Jehan de Pelham]

I hear you. We're in agreement, I think. I myself did some pretty dangerous stuff in the backyard with the neighborhood kids when I was a tad, but these were people I had known closely for years and years. I wouldn't feel comfortable with a "Hi, my name is Adam. Let's wrassle." sort of situation, and as large as the SCA is, there's just too much risk.

The Tuchux is a smaller society, or more like a closed insular society, so I can see how you're able to do it.

Jehan de Pelham, squire of Sir Vitus

[Gabriel Morgan]

I truly wonder how dangerous armoured SCA grappling would be with a proper authorization program.

I have some small experience in Judo and BJJ. There are thousands of open Judo and BJJ tournaments around the world every weekend, and injuries are certainly with the tolerable range of a contact sport. I know that adding armor (difficult to get a 'feel' of how far is too far) and the various weapon-analogs adds a bit of complexity to the equation, but I don't see the entire enterprise as being unreasonable.

Now, there are some people that are not very much into the idea of the 'contact' part of our sport, and I don't think full-on grappling should ever be the standard. I'd love to see it treated like sidesword. Take authorized fighters, go slowly, start from a very small base of techniques(allow shield bashes and grabbing of weapons, perhaps?, and grow from there.


Gabriel, who dreams of slapping an arm bar on someone wielding a madu.

[Animal]

Gabriel anytime you'd like to try I'm game i just put a new plate on my madu and am raring to go