Why the SCA can't change.

[Abaddon]

There has been much talk about the problems of historical inaccuracy in the SCA, a society ostensibly formed for the recreation of a rather widely-spread historical timeframe.
This topic crops up almost every week, as everyone debates the pros and cons of promoting (or outright legislating) greater standards of historical accuracy. The fact of the matter is that it can never happen....not in the way the history purists want.
Why?
Because the SCA has structured itself and its leadership, ranks, and titles, so that nearly all are based around the ability to fight. It does not have artisan kings, they are all warriors.
Can you name, historically, one culture or race of people who were led exclusively by warriors, that was a model of enlightened rule?
Did any of them last very long after their warrior tradition ended?
How many of them built anything that lasted other than a reputation for brutality?

In a warrior dominated society, the warriors do as they wish. The scholars may be tolerated, but only as long as their words do not attempt to infringe upon the rights and perogatives of the warrior caste. If the greater importance is placed upon fighting and winning over anything else, then everything that gives one an advantage in battle will be accepted, and everything that does not will be ridiculed. Not only does it become accepted as a viable alternative, but plastic now becomes better than steel because it assures an easier win.

I just moved recently, and wanted to touch base with the local SCA group in my area. They turned out to be stellar people who were very welcoming and helpful. But the first and most important info I was given was the times and dates of fighter practice. Everything else was a secondary consideration. There was no intro into the philosophy of the SCA; there was no orientation session where the purpose behind the SCA was explained. Simply get some gear, and get on the field.
Persona, historical accuracy, deeper meaning....that all comes later, if one has the time. I got the impression that an interest in history is great, but hardly necessary to be an SCA fighter.
Arts and sciences?
That's stuff you do on your own. There is a lot of respect for people who can make stuff. But there are a lot less classes and sessions on crafting than there are fighter practices. There are a lot more tournaments than there are crafters' fairs. And the other golden nugget of wisdom that keeps people from achieving? Well.....the honor you win on the field as a fighter you get to keep. But in many Arts and Sciences competitions the crafter's submissions are kept by the Crown or the Barony. It's like a donation.
I think that should be optional. And in many Baronies it is. But in some it is simply part of the rules. The A&S submissions are auctioned off later to help defray the Barony' costs. That's a good idea.
But who wants to spend six months working on something and then simply hand it over without recompense? A medieval crafter might do so to drum up business...true. Other nobles would see the Royals wearing something or sitting on a piece of furniture and those things would suddenly become the fashionable choice to have in your own home. So a donation to the Crown was simply good for repeat business. But for someone who is not in business for themeselves and will only make a few of these items in their whole life? This is a hobby. There is just no percentage in it. This practice discourages the number of Arts and Sciences submissions. It is like asking a fighter to give up his sword after every tourney, win or lose. Would he do it and keep playing? Maybe, but he'd enter a lot less tourneys, that is certain. Simple economics would see to that.

If rank in the SCA were determined by a person's standards of play, the accuracy of their kits and the expertise in their particular historical representation (persona)...then you'd see the standards of the SCA going up and up and up. Hopefully in a direction that was attainable and not elitist. But the SCA is like any other group.
It cannot police itself.
Who do you get to judge accuracy?
And who judges the judges?
You would almost have to get someone not affiliated with the group. An outside scholarly testing body. It wouldn't work any other way.
Even doctors, law enforcement officials, politicians; none have proven able to root out the bad apples among themselves or foster an environment that promotes quality above mediocrity. That is not the path of least resistance. The path of least resistance is to turn a blind eye to that whcih is too hard to change, to adopt a "good-enough" attitude, and to cover up for your friends' mistakes. Entrenched bureaucracy wins out over reformist ideology everytime. It is a simple matter of inertia.

In order to reform the SCA's policies you would first have to remove the established power base, and that means the SCA needs to place less emphasis on fighting.

Warfare and battle is but a tiny little portion of medieval and renaissance life anyway, and in the predictable Amercian car-chase and action-movie mentality, we have focused 90% of our attention on that one thing to the exclusion of everything else. That is simply not accurate, so why not start with that? We have a serious perception problem. When we think of medieval Europe we think immediately of the sword rather than the plow. Armouring rather than Cathedral building.
The elite nobility rather than the rank and file.
And how many people's persona's are that of farmers or herders (probably the greatest contributors to population in any part of settled Europe)? Damned few, I would imagine. How then, can we have historical accuracy when 65% of all SCA members are avowed warriors of some sort? What culture historically has ever had that many warriors? What culture could support that many?
And yet the SCA does.
It is under warrior-class rule.
As such, any reformist policy that infringes upon the "game" is going to be shot down in flames or outright ignored.

[Christophe de Frisselle]

http://aurora.homeip.net/gallery/FS00b_Announcement.jpg

[Edward de la Pole]

I think the problem is at a much more fundamental level. There is a large group of people who play in these groups as if it were a martial art and don't really care for the history. There is also a large group of people who get swept in through the renfaire crowd who think it is just a cool "medievalish/renn" place to hang out who really care little for the history. There is also the crowd who are janitors in real life but come to a position of "power" within a group like this to the point that it superimposes itself over their "real" lives and ultimately becomes more important than that "real" life. Then there is the fourth group that will scream that it is "just a game" and that any attempts to challenge them to pick up their level of accuracy as "ruining their fun".

Groups like the SCA/Adria/ECS, etc etc tend to cater to the lowest common denominator and by doing such tends to draw that denominator lower and lower. The good thing about a group the size of the SCA is that you can more or less do your own thing and establish a group that requires a level of accuracy in order to belong to the sub-group. The SCA is large enough that you have a decent chance at recruiting a good enough size group so that it stands out. I think the best example so far (that I have seen) is the Company of St. George.

If you could perform the remarkable feat of doing away with the "Social Engineers" who think that the knight with the leather renn faire jerkin complete with Celtic knotwork and venice beach muscle pants is an appropriate representative of the Chivalry you would be making a good start , but it is highly unlikely that it will EVER happen.

Face it, people who want to uphold a higher level of accuracy in these types of groups are a serious minority, and the lowest common denominator crowd will always claim the "moral highground".

[Captain Jamie]

Abbadon-Where have you seen A&S competitions run as forfeitures? I have never seen this happen in the Midrealm. Perhaps I am uninformed but I doubt it.

Captain Jamie

[Abaddon]

And maybe it is just the hippie inspired all-inclusive founders of the society warring with the hard-core academic elitists.

You're right in that it is a large enough group to contain every kind of kink. It is simply a question of how one would go about pushing any sort of reformist agenda through such a morass of cultural dichotomies. Personally, I believe that the SCA has been around long enough to grow into something a little less self-indulgent. They are a non-profit organization after all...so where is the public good that they do? What level of contribution to society; educational, entertainment, or otherwise, do they provide? Now while I would wish a little more accuracy and scholasticism in the efforts that most SCAdians put forth, I wouldn't ram my own opinions down anyone's throats.
But what if you did want to?
What if we get to the point where the standards we have are not sufficient?
The debate is not if there are standards....because it is clear that there are, lax though they may be....but who controls them, and enforces them, and to what end? How would one go about changing things if it became desirable?

Well, as I said before, if you want change you need to rethink how the SCA bestows positions of authority on its members.
And as far a the SCA's non-profit status goes, are we supposed to be an educational charity? Do we teach anything, other than in small doses, that pertains to something outside the very continuation of the SCA itself? Or is everything we do ultimately self-serving? Sure we teach SCA fighting to those who would learn....but that is only relevant to the SCA and has little or nothing to do with historical methods of warfare...any resemblace is purely coincidental and names and places have been changed to protect the identities of the willfully ignorant.
I am just trying to figure out what we are supposed to be doing?
In service to the dream, to be sure, but are we dreaming too small?

[Abaddon]

Abbadon-Where have you seen A&S competitions run as forfeitures? I have never seen this happen in the Midrealm. Perhaps I am uninformed but I doubt it.

Captain Jamie

Certain baronies in the kingdom of the west, and one barony that I know of that I participated in in the east...all who shall remain nameless....it is not really a criticism of them, and I am not trying to start a flame war with those particular individuals over something that was a group decision...this is simply the way they have chosen to do things, and granted, their costs are a bit higher in those particular baronies...so I understand why they chose this way. But it did cut down on the number of entries in those particular competitions...or worse, it favored those who could AFFORD to submit entries over those who might have had more skill but less money. Laurels to the wealthy, bupkiss to the rest. And then they turn around and use the money so raised to buy prizes for the numerous tourneys.

[Gaston de Vieuxchamps]

Abbadon-Where have you seen A&S competitions run as forfeitures? I have never seen this happen in the Midrealm. Perhaps I am uninformed but I doubt it.

Captain Jamie

14 years in the SCA and I've never heard of such a thing either. I think that would seriously piss me off!

[Snaebjorn Hakonarson]

I have never heard of the entries in an A&S competition here in Aethelmearc being forfeitures. And anyone who tried to take away anything I made and sell it off had better be giving me the profit. The SCA is non profit no matter what it does or doesn't do. I, on the other hand, am very much a Profit oriented man. My goods I put into A&S competitions may go up for sale later. But it will be in my booth at Pennsic or another such venue.


Bjorn Swiftaxe

[dukelogan]

somehow i doubt anyone can name a place that actually happens. in the west, east or anywhere.

regards
logan

[ironmongermisc]

Abbadon-Where have you seen A&S competitions run as forfeitures? I have never seen this happen in the Midrealm. Perhaps I am uninformed but I doubt it.

Captain Jamie

14 years in the SCA and I've never heard of such a thing either. I think that would seriously piss me off!

Then you know very little of your own Kingdom your Grace, when I was in it was quite the common practice to demand works from apprentices and fellow Laurels to fill those tons of gift baskets you and other Royals recieved and gave away to other Royals. One summer I donated like some 72 bottles of mead ro fill baskets for Gulf Wars, Pennsic and Crown list.

Those baskets cost, even under the guise of 'donations' as the shires and baronies compete to see who has the best/largest etc, and often the pieces are given away by the Crown as tokens etc.

You know me, we talked mead and guilds and even your 'okra' mead' tasting. I turned down a Non Pariel at Arts/sciences during your first riegn,,

[Abaddon]

Abbadon-Where have you seen A&S competitions run as forfeitures? I have never seen this happen in the Midrealm. Perhaps I am uninformed but I doubt it.

Captain Jamie

14 years in the SCA and I've never heard of such a thing either. I think that would seriously piss me off!

I myself was flabbergasted.
And I was a complete newby the first time I saw this happen.
I didn't know what to think.
I mean it was voluntary, if you didn't want to donate, you simply didn't compete. But it was done. Not every time, at every event, but it was done. If you want me to name names, I will, but the purpose of this post was not to slander anyone, but simply to question a few practices.

[Cap'n Atli]

Returning to the original thread; this is why my cohorts and I staggered off on our own path after meeting up with Scadia in the very early '70s. Not only did a political-social system based on fighting prowess make little or no sense to us, but being a bunch of history dweebs we knew our role would soon descend to boot-lickers. I'm a good leader (Thegn Boden even said that he'd follow me to the gates of hell "if it wasn't a warm day."); but my personal close-combat fighting ability leaves much to be desired.

Our contention was that the system was at least as ahistorical as elections. William the Conqueror may have been a very good fighter, but odds are he wasn't the best. He was, however, a superb leader. Scadia tilts towards the better fighter, no matter what his or her leadership abilities may be.

In a reenactment scenario we get to have peasants and plowmen and display women supporting the troops by providing the logistics. People can be honored for studying the whole society and showing and understanding how it worked. Scadian style combat is considered a sport, a diversion, a learning experience, not an end in itself (although many of the more recent Marklanders are drifting in that direction. ) On the longship just staying alive and getting where we're going is the primary mission; the sea will kill you just as dead now as 1,000 years ago.

I admire much of what my Scadian friends have done, but now that I think of it, they're almost all A&S types, craftsfolk and Laurels. With the exception of one open minded and generous former monarch, the rest of the heirarchy could hardly take the time to snub me and mine over the years.

So, we sit back and observe; but almost all that I've observed over the years is that, politically, Abaddon has whacked the nail squarely on the head! There is little or know incentive to EVER change the system; and with 6 month monarchies any change can soon be turned back by the social pressure.

"Marklanders don't make very good leaders; but they don't make very good followers, either." (Bork, our senior bos'n in the LSCo)

[horsefriend]

First, on the original topic:
Waving a stick IS a stupid way to select leaders, we only put up with them for 4! months (I know, I've been to the finals, they could have been stuck with me)
The fighting does seem to be what holds the organization together, however, many wonderful thing s occur off the field that would probably not ever happen if # list or Y war had not drawn a thousand people to that site that weekend. The sport fighting is the skeleton which we flesh out with pas', A&S, equestrian activities, and all the chivalry, pomp, exacting research, and utter bulls@#t that we can muster.


Now the other half of the thread

Abaddon,

I've been active for over 25 years and I've never encountered forfieture, either (I'm unfamiliar with the Far West, however). I'm pretty sure that such a proceedure violates a number of corporate laws and , if reported, would have serious adverse results for those extorting the items.


Ironmongermisc.,

Out here the Royals beg for items for gift baskets and frequently fill them out of their own pockets (one reigning pair spent more than 3K on gifts during thier reign. I've heard it said that gifting to the Royals helps get your work noticed, and of course it will, when it's paraded in front of 500 people at Court; but personal gifts to the Royalty tend to be frowned on in Court, and winning A&S gets you far more attention from the Laurels, gifting is generally veiwed as "sucking up".
Making regalia for the KINGDOM, not the Royalty is looked highly upon; however, you suffer through an painstaking regalia comittee review, and items are normally restricted to those clearly needing replacement or updating. In addition, the costs of substatial pieces of regalia are often covered by the Kingdom/Principality, and in fact, an RFP is often issued, with formal proposals and cost estimates being submitted by artisans willing to attempt the comission.


alail/scott

[Alcyoneus]

Without the fighting, there would be no SCA. And without the rest of it, there would be no SCA.

If it was limited to the fighting, it could be done in little dojos all over the place. Because of the fighting, and the people that wanted to do more than that (knights in shining armor need ladies wearing dresses, ladies wearing dresses need trim, jewelry, etc....), we have a vast spectrum of activities to engage in all in one place.

There are square dancing clubs.
There are dojos.
There are sewing circles.
There are rock clubs.
There are brewers.
There are quilting bees.
There are jewelers.

There is only one SCA that brings them all together, and in the darkness binds them. In the land of the Laurel Kingdoms, where dreams lie...

[Marshal]

Sure, it's an imperfect way to choose leaders. But so was primogeniture. Historical methods would probably serve us even worse.

[Dave Womble]

Number one, the cost...its absurd. There should be no monetary cost to join what is increasingly becoming a jock club. My wife and I looked into it about 5 years ago, and the hierarchy, practices, and rules of fighting turned me off immediatly. Watching some SCAdians whacking each other and hopping around on 1 foot was totally absurd, and only 1 step up from the lame LARPS and boffers I had seen around my college campus.

The goals and ideals that are supposedly represented are very shallow and weak. I totally agree with Abadons views. Like any other group, there are those I'm sure who DO want to be as authentic as they can, but as was already said, in a group that large, the lowest denominator will always rule out. The SCA is a playground for weekend warriors, ren faire goers, self proclaimed medievalists and gamers who wanna walk the walk, but dont want to put the time in to talk the talk. I have little repsect for people of that ilk.

To all those SCA members who do strive to learn the ways of the time they claim to be representing, I applaud you. To those that just wanna be stick jocks with their plastic and carpet armour, you are a disgrace. I am not wealthy, I'm not even well off, I'm a struggling blue collar worker with a wife and 2 young kids in a crappy apartment, with the same bills and concerns and daily life issues as the majority of us...yet I was able to put together a 14th century transitional harness, legs, arms, Churburg segmented breastplate, demi gaunts, gorget and kettle hat. So those who use plastic and carpet armour, or other absurdly out of place gear have no excuse other than laziness or apathy.

The various living history orgs dont seem to have the issues the SCA does. I can name off a dozen or so living history sites that are far, far superior to anything the SCA has to offer, and it is to those groups my interest, patronage, and resources go to.

The SCA has become an inflated cow basting in its own self perceived greatness, and its pretty sad, because it had such potential.

[Dalewyn]

It's only slander if it's not true. As you say it's true, there is no slander to worry about. Can you name the Baronies, dates and events? More facts and less heresay tend to clear things up. What you've offered so far is heresay.
On Topic: Ever notice the long lists of Laurels, Pelicans, Maunches and Silver cresents awarded compared to the short list of Order of Tigers Combattants and Knights (Especially in the East)? That's because the King, (or Queen by right of arms), is a good fighter above all, and not necessarily good at anything else. They value fighting awards highly, and give these out sparingly, and arts and sciences or service awards far less so, and give these out much more freely.

Abbadon-Where have you seen A&S competitions run as forfeitures? I have never seen this happen in the Midrealm. Perhaps I am uninformed but I doubt it.

Captain Jamie

14 years in the SCA and I've never heard of such a thing either. I think that would seriously piss me off!

I myself was flabbergasted.
And I was a complete newby the first time I saw this happen.
I didn't know what to think.
I mean it was voluntary, if you didn't want to donate, you simply didn't compete. But it was done. Not every time, at every event, but it was done. If you want me to name names, I will, but the purpose of this post was not to slander anyone, but simply to question a few practices.

[Morgan]

I respect your opinion so I respectfully ask you to name me a dozen living history organizations that have superior numbers to the SCA, a dozen LH organizations that have as many local chapters.

The various living history orgs dont seem to have the issues the SCA does. I can name off a dozen or so living history sites that are far, far superior to anything the SCA has to offer, and it is to those groups my interest, patronage, and resources go to.

[Morgan]

Interesting supposition. Do you come to this conclusion from being royalty or being exceptionally close entourage? I always thought more A&S and service awards went out because more people did A&S and service than fighting. (Because many many of those who fight do A&S and Service as well.)

On Topic: Ever notice the long lists of Laurels, Pelicans, Maunches and Silver cresents awarded compared to the short list of Order of Tigers Combattants and Knights (Especially in the East)? That's because the King, (or Queen by right of arms), is a good fighter above all, and not necessarily good at anything else. They value fighting awards highly, and give these out sparingly, and arts and sciences or service awards far less so, and give these out much more freely.

[ironmongermisc]

Ironmongermisc.,

Out here the Royals beg for items for gift baskets and frequently fill them out of their own pockets (one reigning pair spent more than 3K on gifts during thier reign. I've heard it said that gifting to the Royals helps get your work noticed, and of course it will, when it's paraded in front of 500 people at Court; but personal gifts to the Royalty tend to be frowned on in Court, and winning A&S gets you far more attention from the Laurels, gifting is generally veiwed as "sucking up".
Making regalia for the KINGDOM, not the Royalty is looked highly upon; however, you suffer through an painstaking regalia comittee review, and items are normally restricted to those clearly needing replacement or updating. In addition, the costs of substatial pieces of regalia are often covered by the Kingdom/Principality, and in fact, an RFP is often issued, with formal proposals and cost estimates being submitted by artisans willing to attempt the comission.


alail/scott[/quote]

Not in Trimaris Milord, gift baskets ae given by groups to the Crown, and also the Crowns ask for gift basket to be given at Gulf Wars and Pennsic to other Crowns, AND monetary donations are asked of the populace to defray some Crown costs like going to Pennsic.

I heard of a Barony in Hiawaii where they rotate the Baroncy w one term being under a fighter and the other under the winner of art/sci,,

[Morgan]

I believe that's the Barony of the Far West, which is Japan, actually.

Ironmongermisc.,


Not in Trimaris Milord, gift baskets ae given by groups to the Crown, and also the Crowns ask for gift basket to be given at Gulf Wars and Pennsic to other Crowns, AND monetary donations are asked of the populace to defray some Crown costs like going to Pennsic.

I heard of a Barony in Hiawaii where they rotate the Baroncy w one term being under a fighter and the other under the winner of art/sci,,

[Snaebjorn Hakonarson]

I can tell you from experience that ALL of the royalty in the past 4 years in Aethelmearc have put serious emphasis on the arts and sciences. Our current king is working with the prince and princess to institute a new order to recognize those who are as close to period in the list field as can be possible (damn bargrills!) and another to recognize those gentles who strive to be as authentic as they can be in any situation.

Yes there is a major emphasis on fighting but from my experience its beacuse combat is what draws people to ANY group. Not just the SCA. Sure we don't do it with live steel and the armor is more often then not seriously out of period. Which I do not condone. But it is still a draw. Just like when most individuals get into living history. They got in cause of someone swinging a sword.

Constantly I hear from people on here that "I'm broke and have to pay this that and the other thing and I still managed a period kit so why can't you?". Well here's an idea. Because most people do NOT want to spend that much money on a hobby. I, myself, am willing to because I've made the SCA my life because it is the primary venue for my business. So I will spend the money to make my tunics and pants from linen and wool. I will spend the money to put period belt buckles and tips and plaques on a strip of leather. I will take the time to find out what a period buckle, tip, or plaque looks like before I buy or make one!

But most people won't. There is also that group of people who can't. I know several individuals in the SCA who can't find out what a period item looks like. They can't make sure the stitches are perfect. Why? Cause they are blind. But at least one of them shoots archery. And she is a damn good shot. She can't afford to have someone make her garb for her. She has way to many hospital bills on top of the normal costs for living. So tell her the next time you think its sickening that her visible seams aren't handsewn. Yes she could get help but she prefers to prove she can do it just as well as a person who isn't blind. She gets help at events and such but she makes her own stuff most of the time just to prove she can.

Sometimes you have to look around and look at the size of the group. Then think about it. Not all of these people are going to be as normal as you are. We have tens of thousands of members. There are going to be those with handicaps. Those with learning disabilities. Those who just simply are unable to do things as correctly as your average person. They may want to but they have considerations that do not allow them too. I will not make excuses for those people who make 70 thousand dollars a year working in an office who still dress in sheets from walmart and plastic armour. That is just as sickening to me as it is anyone else.

But quite often I see people in badly done garb or nylon tents because its all they can afford so they can join the game faster. They aren't doing it because they think its period (some might) but because they want to go and watch the fighting or play Naftafl with some friends at a pavillion down the road. They do it so they can have fun sooner. Most people don't want to work on their garb for months making fully period outfits in order to go to an event. Its to much work just to have fun to them.

Sure I think the authenticity levels of the SCA should go up. But I think the only way that will happen is when everyone who wants this stops complaining and starts helping others be more authentic! Talk the local groups start instituting their own rules for authenticity. We cannot lower the standards but it is perfectly legal for us to raise the standards for authenticity in our own groups. So stop the complaining and name calling and start helping people find inexpensive ways to look as period as possible. And if you do Living History-join your local SCA group and help them raise the bar! Don't just stick your nose up and complain that we give you a bad name. Get your hands dirty by helping to pull the SCA out of the mudhole of badly made garb and plastic armour.

Bjorn Swiftax
The Concerned Castellain

[brewer]

I respect your opinion so I respectfully ask you to name me a dozen living history organizations that have superior numbers to the SCA, a dozen LH organizations that have as many local chapters.

The various living history orgs dont seem to have the issues the SCA does. I can name off a dozen or so living history sites that are far, far superior to anything the SCA has to offer, and it is to those groups my interest, patronage, and resources go to.

I hardly think that's the point, Morgan. I think (and shall stand humbly corrected if I am wrong) that the point is clear: quality trumps quantity.

In the two Iraq wars, vastly smaller groups of well-trained warriors beat the snot out of a huge army, merely repeating the lesson of Agincourt.

Micro-brewed beer tastes better than fizzy yellow swill.

In short, dedicated individuals make the difference, not the sheer number of people or widgets an organisation can bring to bear. In reenactment, you have maybe twenty people gathering together to do a very specific thing as accurately as possible. For example, our new ECW group numbers less than a dozen. But we're all absolutely dedicated to accurately portraying Summer 1642.

We also don't have nearly as much political bullshit as does the SCA, for many reasons:

1. We have no award structure.
2. The guy in the can at the meeting gets to be the officer. (a bit of a joke; usually, it's the most passionate or best-equipped chap who takes charge)
3. Our groups are so small, we can police ourselves.
4. (Related to 3) We have distinct "Do it or don't bother to show up" kit and behaviour requirements.

Sometimes, when an umbrella organisation exists -- for example, the ECWSA -- a turd will try to float politically. Because we recognise this as our hobby, we have very, very little tolerance for such behaviour, and we quickly flush them.

We just want to have fun, too, just like SCAdians do. Maybe there's some part of our psych profile which prevents us from being satisfied with "an approximation." I know I personally am unsatisfied unless I've got it as close to "right" as current research demands. Maybe I was raised wrong, 'cause I was raised to think, "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing well/right." I dunno. But there it is.

[Morgan]

You misunderstand me. I'm merely pointing out the falicy in making extreme absolute statements. His statement was that he could name dozens of LH groups that are superior to "anything the SCA has to offer." I just asked for a dozen LH groups that have more to offere than the SCA in terms of number of participants and convenience of events and local goups. Is that unfair of me in response to such a statement? In terms of # of participants and # of events and proximity of local events, in a lot of ways, quantity IS quality.

I hardly think that's the point, Morgan. I think (and shall stand humbly corrected if I am wrong) that the point is clear: quality trumps quantity.

[Alcyoneus]

I believe that's the Barony of the Far West, which is Japan, actually.

Ironmongermisc.,
I heard of a Barony in Hawaii where they rotate the Baroncy w one term being under a fighter and the other under the winner of art/sci,,

The Barony of the Western Seas (Hawaii/Oahu) does rotate the method of Baronial selection, and has done it this way for over 20 years. I don't know about BFW, I didn't start there.

[Dalewyn]

No Morgan, I come to this conclusion because of the numbers. Take a look at how many OTC's and Knighthoods are out there compared to their respective service and arts and sciences awards. Stats for my barony: OTC 3; Maunch 20; Silver Crescent 17; Laurel 4; Pelican 4; Chiv 1. Now really, we don't suck at fighting, as it might seem from these stats; so what is it? One conclusion is that scarcity makes something more valuable. So to keep the awards valuable, we'd better be sure whoever is getting them is super deserving, which means they have to fight them in person. Why is that, when service and A & S awards are given out based upon recomendations?

Interesting supposition. Do you come to this conclusion from being royalty or being exceptionally close entourage? I always thought more A&S and service awards went out because more people did A&S and service than fighting. (Because many many of those who fight do A&S and Service as well.)

On Topic: Ever notice the long lists of Laurels, Pelicans, Maunches and Silver cresents awarded compared to the short list of Order of Tigers Combattants and Knights (Especially in the East)? That's because the King, (or Queen by right of arms), is a good fighter above all, and not necessarily good at anything else. They value fighting awards highly, and give these out sparingly, and arts and sciences or service awards far less so, and give these out much more freely.

[Alcyoneus]

No Morgan, I come to this conclusion because of the numbers. Take a look at how many OTC's and Knighthoods are out there compared to their respective service and arts and sciences awards. Stats for my barony: OTC 3; Maunch 20; Silver Crescent 17; Laurel 4; Pelican 4; Chiv 1. Now really, we don't suck at fighting, as it might seem from these stats; so what is it? One conclusion is that scarcity makes something more valuable. So to keep the awards valuable, we'd better be sure whoever is getting them is super deserving, which means they have to fight them in person. Why is that, when service and A & S awards are given out based upon recomendations?

I'm sure you could find other local groups with other numbers. Without more information, those numbers mean little. What is the total population vs the number that only fight? I'm certain you can find more people that "only" fight than "only" do A&S (far more types of this than fighting ), or "only" do service. No one has to agree with the Crown that someone should be a Laurel or Pelican, per se. At least one knight has to agree with the Crown that someone should receive a belt (unless the Crown is one).

Calontir has app. 80 Chiv, 73 Pelicans, 104 Laurels.

[Timo]

[ No one has to agree with the Crown that someone should be a Laurel or Pelican, per se. At least one knight has to agree with the Crown that someone should receive a belt (unless the Crown is one).

Acutally that's not true (unless its specifically written that way into your kingdom law). The Crown can make any peerage they wish without a certain vote of the council, they only must poll the council.

Yep, that means they can make a peer against the unanimous vote of the circle.

regards,
Timo

[InsaneIrish]

Number one, the cost...its absurd. There should be no monetary cost to join what is increasingly becoming a jock club. My wife and I looked into it about 5 years ago, and the hierarchy, practices, and rules of fighting turned me off immediatly. Watching some SCAdians whacking each other and hopping around on 1 foot was totally absurd, and only 1 step up from the lame LARPS and boffers I had seen around my college campus.

The goals and ideals that are supposedly represented are very shallow and weak. I totally agree with Abadons views. Like any other group, there are those I'm sure who DO want to be as authentic as they can, but as was already said, in a group that large, the lowest denominator will always rule out. The SCA is a playground for weekend warriors, ren faire goers, self proclaimed medievalists and gamers who wanna walk the walk, but dont want to put the time in to talk the talk. I have little repsect for people of that ilk.

To all those SCA members who do strive to learn the ways of the time they claim to be representing, I applaud you. To those that just wanna be stick jocks with their plastic and carpet armour, you are a disgrace. I am not wealthy, I'm not even well off, I'm a struggling blue collar worker with a wife and 2 young kids in a crappy apartment, with the same bills and concerns and daily life issues as the majority of us...yet I was able to put together a 14th century transitional harness, legs, arms, Churburg segmented breastplate, demi gaunts, gorget and kettle hat. So those who use plastic and carpet armour, or other absurdly out of place gear have no excuse other than laziness or apathy.

The various living history orgs dont seem to have the issues the SCA does. I can name off a dozen or so living history sites that are far, far superior to anything the SCA has to offer, and it is to those groups my interest, patronage, and resources go to.

The SCA has become an inflated cow basting in its own self perceived greatness, and its pretty sad, because it had such potential.

thank you Durin,

Your post has pretty much summed the kind of response that I have come to expect from the majority of Living History people.

You stand back and point and laugh and cast disparogies(sp?) at the SCA yet you offer no positive advice or options to help us change. You call us absurd yet in the same breath name those "who do strive to learn the ways of the time they claim to be representing," as good and worthy of your notice. You don't like the SCA, fine, don't play. The SCA will go on without you. Your remarks are crass and judgmental and while they may have a ring of truth to them, your obvious distain and dislike tosses your whole post into the "troll" catagory.

I do not understand why people who have either tried the SCA and didn't like it or just looked into the SCA pasted it by, need to "throw stones" at us. I never here anything from people in the SCA about living history guys other than that they have higher standards than the SCA and that they look cool. On the other hand I hear about everything wrong with the SCA and how Living History is better when I talk to LH guys.

Does Thou Protest too Much....

[Morgan]

I'm not disagreeing with your numbers, just wondering at your conclusion is all.

No Morgan, I come to this conclusion because of the numbers. Take a look at how many OTC's and Knighthoods are out there compared to their respective service and arts and sciences awards. Stats for my barony: OTC 3; Maunch 20; Silver Crescent 17; Laurel 4; Pelican 4; Chiv 1. Now really, we don't suck at fighting, as it might seem from these stats; so what is it? One conclusion is that scarcity makes something more valuable. So to keep the awards valuable, we'd better be sure whoever is getting them is super deserving, which means they have to fight them in person. Why is that, when service and A & S awards are given out based upon recomendations?

Interesting supposition. Do you come to this conclusion from being royalty or being exceptionally close entourage? I always thought more A&S and service awards went out because more people did A&S and service than fighting. (Because many many of those who fight do A&S and Service as well.)

On Topic: Ever notice the long lists of Laurels, Pelicans, Maunches and Silver cresents awarded compared to the short list of Order of Tigers Combattants and Knights (Especially in the East)? That's because the King, (or Queen by right of arms), is a good fighter above all, and not necessarily good at anything else. They value fighting awards highly, and give these out sparingly, and arts and sciences or service awards far less so, and give these out much more freely.

[Morgan]

How does a king who's not a knight make a knight? If the king is a knight, then ONE member of the circle believes the candidate should be a knight, and it can happen. I believe this is the point that Alcy is making. It's fairly far-fetched, so I don't know how it would go down practically speaking, but if you have an unbelted crown and no knights are in court, how can he make a knight?

[ No one has to agree with the Crown that someone should be a Laurel or Pelican, per se. At least one knight has to agree with the Crown that someone should receive a belt (unless the Crown is one).

Acutally that's not true (unless its specifically written that way into your kingdom law). The Crown can make any peerage they wish without a certain vote of the council, they only must poll the council.

Yep, that means they can make a peer against the unanimous vote of the circle.

regards,
Timo

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

And who judges the judges?

And who judges the judges of the judges of the judges of the judges of the judges of the judges of the judges? You could say that endlessly. People are chosen as masters, those people then become the judges. Some may deserve to be there, other may not. I am certainly not one to judge.

As to the rest of your post:

Yes, the SCA has a large focus on combat, but I think that a lot is based on the groups in your area. My group is heavily focused on A&S. In the almost 2 years I have been with them, we have not run and event without a number of classes, from dancing to fabrics, to hearldry to cooking and herbology. A number of groups in the area run classes at their events.

Also, 65% is an innaccurate number for the percentage of SCA fighters. It is closer to 35% - There are also the inumberable amount of non-members that go to SCA events that dont fight, reducing that number even more. Even your largest of events (Pennsic, Gulf Wars, Estrella, Lillies, etc...) have far more non-combatants than combatants. In the range of 6 or 8 to 1. That is less than 20%.

I agree that there is a certain mentallity that will likely forever prevent certain tings from changing in the SCA, for the better, however, there are efforts that are beign made, even on the level of royalty, to change this. Look at the chagne that occured last year in Atlantia (I believe) to further accuracy. Yes, this change revolved around combat, but lets look at the ripple:

More period gear requires people who can make it.
That gear includes armor, clothing, pavillions, personal items, chests, etc...
The need for these items, makes the want for their makers greater.
The greater that demand, the more you will have those craftsman.
The more craftsman, the more variety of interests.
The more interests, the more encompassing the society.

Yes, combat is a main driving force in the SCA, but it is hardly the majority. I will not say that it wont change. The change will take time. It will take the effort of those who hold influence. It will take that influence to persuede the masses. If you want something to change, start there.

Bluntly put - and this is not directed at ANYONE specifically:

If you want something to change, dont bitch about it, start trying to change it. Change starts with the individual.

[brewer]

You misunderstand me. I'm merely pointing out the falicy in making extreme absolute statements. His statement was that he could name dozens of LH groups that are superior to "anything the SCA has to offer." I just asked for a dozen LH groups that have more to offere than the SCA in terms of number of participants and convenience of events and local goups. Is that unfair of me in response to such a statement? In terms of # of participants and # of events and proximity of local events, in a lot of ways, quantity IS quality.

Not unfair at all, sir. In fact, your last sentence explains why Kass and I play in the SCA. We have, at most, three events per year with any given reenactment group with which we play. Those numbers are going up, but it still makes sense to go to the SCA to get our "funny clothes fix."

I still contend that, pound for pound, in terms of historical accuracy and lack of political bullshit, reenactment has the SCA beat hands down. Yes, there are farby reenactment individuals and groups out there, but the ratio is (IMO) rather less than the inversion of rabid SCAdian authenticists to "normal" SCAdians. And nowhere in reenactment do we see the kind of vicious political backbiting often seen in the SCA (at least that I've seen). Yeah, we reenactors have had an issue or two in that vein, too, but it happens once a decade, and pisses off so many people that we make damn sure it doesn't happen for another ten years.

You stand back and point and laugh and cast disparogies(sp?)

disparagies.

at the SCA yet you offer no positive advice or options to help us change. You call us absurd yet in the same breath name those "who do strive to learn the ways of the time they claim to be representing," as good and worthy of your notice. You don't like the SCA, fine, don't play. The SCA will go on without you.

You're right, sir. The SCA will go on without those for whom accuracy is a priority. Good thing, too. That's as far as we agree.

There have been plenty of bits of advice, options, and information floated on this BB and elsewhere from reenactors to SCAdians. Why is it our fault that people like you don't want to listen? After all, there's only a few ways to accomplish the change of which we speak, but the intense inclusivity (anyone being welcomed as a full participant who makes any attempt to wear something that doesn't look like modern American street clothing, which seems to be what "makes an attempt at pre-17th century garb" means), coupled with intense animosity toward any attempt to heighten standards which would violate that inclusivity, negates any advice which we give.

For my part, I refuse to accept your ire for your refusal to fix your problem, even after I've given you the tools, methods, and encouragement.

I do not understand why people who have either tried the SCA and didn't like it or just looked into the SCA pasted it by, need to "throw stones" at us. I never here anything from people in the SCA about living history guys other than that they have higher standards than the SCA and that they look cool. On the other hand I hear about everything wrong with the SCA and how Living History is better when I talk to LH guys.

It's been said before, but I'll say it again: Not every LHer is like that. In fact, I know very, very few who have such a lack of social skill to say such a thing. All the LHers I know say how the SCA is perfect for what it is. We just get our knickers in a twist when someone equates our hobbies (the SCA and LH), because they are different, to a very marked extent. Is one better than the other? No, not in the grand sense. We both fill different niches, that's all.

Does Thou Protest too Much....

At the risk of making your point, "Dost thou protest too much?" would be the correct way to say that.

It is, after all, an early C17 manner of speech.

[Timo]

How does a king who's not a knight make a knight? If the king is a knight, then ONE member of the circle believes the candidate should be a knight, and it can happen. I believe this is the point that Alcy is making. It's fairly far-fetched, so I don't know how it would go down practically speaking, but if you have an unbelted crown and no knights are in court, how can he make a knight?

Morgan,

All the Crown legally has to do is consult with the order and then make their decision. "Consult" can be read a number of ways, it could just be finding a Chiv member and saying "I'm making Squire Dingus a knight, what do you think?".

I'm not sure what you mean by knights "in court". If you mean present at the elevation then that's not required, but I guess you could take the "Only a knight can make a knight" rule, ususally expressed by having a knight hold the dubbing sword, and use that to stop an elevation that viciously opposed.

/can of worms

So, it's far-fetched...but......

1. if an unbelt king......
2. went against the unanimous vote of the council.....
3. and tried to elevate someone......
4. but all the knights refused to show up....
5. so the person couldn't be elevated.....
6. because only a knight can make a knight....
7. but then all those knights broke their fealty oaths......
8. by refusing to obey their king in a lawful (if not very nice) command...
9. but that king broke fealty first (in some opinions) by refusing council...

awwww. hell...... my brain cant wrap around it .....suffice it so say it would be a freaking mess.

/end can of worms

regards,
Timo

[Morgan]

All I have to say is "thank god it's AWFULLY far-fetched."