Coat-of-Plates with External Plates or Bands?

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:21 pm

Getting ready to make my first COPs - finally!

And I was wondering about something. A COP is basically a Roman Lorica Segmentala turned inside out. Rather than having the connecting leather on the inside with the COPs the leather or canvas is on the outside.

Does anyone know if anyone during medieval times ever made COPs with the metal on the outside? I've never noticed it, but I'm NOT any kind of expert.

The guy who runs the Silk Road Armoury has a line drawing of a 16th Century Hungarian Coat of Bands with period plate spaulders and arms. He suggests this is a result of the Hungarians picking up on an oriental style and that it was made in Germany and Italy. It looks a lot like a Lorica Sementala body with European plate shoulders and arms.

Anyone seen anything like this? And earlier than the 16th Century? If the European could pick up an armour style in existance in the East since the 8th Century, why not earlier? After all the Mongol were in Poland and Germany in 1241 - Krakow and Leignitz.

Michael B · Post by **Michael B** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:22 pm

[suggestion addressed]

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:49 pm

Obviously misunderstood. Post deleted, far be it from me to ask for help in the wrong forum

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:24 am

You have also posted in the Armour construction forum, where the discussion is going there already.

One post is sufficient.

Erik

Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:44 am

Hello.

I am not absulutely sure about "all plates on the outside" patterns, but thereÃ‚Â´s German 14th century corrazina- style armour that displays one oval plate outside the cover, over the chest, holding the famed chains that connect the sword, dagger, and greathelm.

Regards

Ivo

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:27 am

Akmatov:

What some people often do is "X-Post", or cross post, between forums, which is perfectly acceptable.

Usually, all the X-posts merely have a link to the original thread in one single forum, like so:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ly&t=29040

This is the URL for this very thread (you can see it at the top of your screen in your browser address field - all you have to do is copy and paste it into the message body).

I'm not familiar with any coats of plates depictions where the plates were on the outside, though I do believe I remember Thordeman (author of Armour from the Battle of Wisby 1361) commenting in the same book about coats of plates with plates on the outside. I will see if I can dig up the reference.

The usual fashion, however, is a coat, or "jupon", with plates riveted to the inside.

Steve

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:27 am

The Hungarian armor is not an "armor of bands," but simply a different philosophy of how the lames should run in order to provide more movement to the waist... partially because the Hungarian saddle was different, partially because the hussars for which these were designed were a sort of "medium" cavalry, rather than rather heavy as they were in Poland, and partially because until very recently Hungarians still moved in ways that we normally think of as much more Turkic -- squatting, etc.

But it is still very much in line with european armor design, rather than asian.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:23 am

Gentlemen, sorry for the discourtesy of cross-posting.

I have found in other forum that a comment or question may go unnoticed if placed only in the apparently correct forum. You guys actually notice. Will confine my curiousity to one forum at a time in future.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:38 am

Russ Mitchell

The Hungarian armor is not an "armor of bands," but simply a different philosophy of how the lames should run in order to provide more movement to the waist

Interesting. I seem to recall that during the late medieval period breast plates started to develop as having two or three pieces with some articulation. Did Hungarian armour start doing this earlier and/or with more lames? Would certainly make for a more mobile design.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:16 pm

If you look very closely at the armors, you will find that, by and large (I'm caveatting, because I just KNOW there's some exmaple I'm not familiar with which will be used to club me like a baby harp seal), the anime lames and faulds, etcetera, do not run as high on the chest further west as they did for Hungary. I've noticed this even looking at the difference between Hungarian and Polish. One of my professors, who has actually gotten to wear one for a moment, says that he had total freedom of movement inside it (and his style of fencing requires it), particularly for bending and for squatting, etc... though I've no experience trying to ride in harness, I really do think the saddle makes a gigantic difference for the armour design... certainly the really good horses from Lipica which became so well-known in Austria were totally rejected by the Hungarians as unsuited to their needs.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:03 pm

This conciderable stylistic difference between 'European' and Hungarian armour is very interesting. Obviously such things are often driven by practical conciderations. I'm guessing that even Hungarian 'heavies' liked the possibility of using a bow? And I remember reading somewhere a comment about the wisdom of riding a horse in a one piece breast plate.

I gather anime armour didn't appear in 'Europe' until the 16th Century when it was said to be fairly popular. Do you have a sense of when it would have been first used in Hungary?

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:30 pm

About the same period in Hungary. Generally speaking, though, the folks wearing this stuff didn't use a bow a whole lot under optimal circumstances. The hussar was a medium cavalryman, and would have used the "lobster armor" (as it's called in Hungary), a great big winged shield, sabre, military pick, lance... later on, with fights going on with the border castles, and in the mountain warfare (prior to modern-day Hungary, which is 1/3rd medieval hUngary, the terrain is as much mountains as plains... and almost all of the fighting in Transylvania was obviously mountain warfare). In the 16th century, lots of crossbows, lots of firearms, SOME bows, but not as much as earlier.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:57 pm

Darn, was hoping to come up a justification for anime being earlier.

Given that most images I have of Ottoman troops, with whom the Hungarians had a lot of 'contact', show them as having a bow as part of their kit, I was assuming most Hungarians would also. And the 15th Century pictures I do have show Hungarians with bows, but they are light cavalry.

I do have a drawing from a tomb effigy from 1487 which shows (now that I'm looking) a breast plate of six lames or overlapping layers which I take to be anime. So late 15th Century seems to be when it started showing up.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 4:40 pm

If it was VERY late 15th, I could buy that: Hungary was the first place outside of Italy to get the Renaissance Culture Product... but I mean, like, 1490s late, not 1475. And I'd back off that as fast as anybody who knew that period better piped up...

But for the fifteenth, those dudes with bows are the militia portalis... different guys. If you're looking for a hungarian persona, I can help you with that... if you like that armor specifically, I'm afraid you may be SOL trying to keep it in period.

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 7:19 pm

My intended persona is German - late 14th early 15th, which is just too early. My idea was that guys got around and he might have picked up something cool while in Hungary fighting the Turks. But I think it is just too late for me.

Course if I ever get good enough to actually make an anime breast plate, well then the persona gonna have to adapt.

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:49 pm

In Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight, there is a period piece of artwork depicting two different warriors wearing coats of plates with the plates on the outside. This is on page 74, if you have a copy or can get your hands on one. While this is far from proof that this was common, it does suggest that perhaps it was done. Also the authors, David Edge and John Paddock, to mention that this was occasionally done. The illustration shown in the book is the Romance of Alexander, and illuminated manuscript that is housed in the Bodleian LIbrary, wherever that may be. The date appears to be around the middle of the fourteenth century, and that appears to be earlier than you were wanting, but it's all I got

Bran

LITTLE LOCUS · Post by **LITTLE LOCUS** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:08 am

[quote="Akmatov"
I do have a drawing from a tomb effigy from 1487 which shows (now that I'm looking) a breast plate of six lames or overlapping layers which I take to be anime. So late 15th Century seems to be when it started showing up.[/quote]

Akmatov, I would be VERY interested in seeing that picture. Do you have a scan of it?

L.L.
}

Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:05 am

Hello.

The 15th century "anime- CoP-hybrid" is Irish, as far as I know.

Regards

Ivo

Akmatov · Post by **Akmatov** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:08 pm

LITTLE LOCUS Just read your comment, I'll see if I can make a digital pic and learn to attack to a post. New skills

Coat-of-Plates with External Plates or Bands?

Coat-of-Plates with External Plates or Bands?

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