How much is too much?

Kerrick · Post by **Kerrick** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:47 pm

I just purchased another set of armor, I must admit that I am excited to get it and try it on. But I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t help but wonder when do you have too much armor on. I have been watching some of the better fighters. And they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have things like spaulders or breastplates or really much more then a kidney belt and elbow and knee cops. BdeB, a fighter to me who embodies chivalry, once put up a post asking this same thing. So what does everyone think? How much armor is too much, and at what point do you start losing your edge because of unneeded weight?

Patton Lives · Post by **Patton Lives** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:54 pm

Not that it answers your post, but I had this same debate with myself when decided where to spend my money, and decided to just bite the bullet and do it the period way it was done, rather than use minamal armor to gain a competetive edge in what is basically a game of stick tag. I'll simply judge my prowess in combat with similiarly armed and armored folks and not worry too much about losing (if I do) to speedy gonzalez in the kidney belt and bargrill.

Skillet · Post by **Skillet** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:19 pm

Well, of course, one would think that it would depend on individual's prioritys. Most people on these boards I would guess, love armour, and love the thought of being on the field in historically correct (or close) kits.

As an example. I fight in a nice bargrill bascinet, but if I could afford to upgrade to a clappvisor I would sacrifice some visibility because that's a type of helm that I find beautiful and appealing in lots of ways.

Also, the majority of people in say 3/4 legs are out there in mild. Spring steel would close the gap some. For me, I'll take the weight penalty because my left thigh has been hit over a thousand times

and I can't afford the upgrade at this time.

We love our cake, and we want to wear it. I fought for years in mail over gambeson but feel fine in my churburg breast these days, and come on, nice spaulders are too pretty (and easy to come by) to do without.

One thing I can't handle is full steel arms, so it's good quality leather (thank you Viking). I feel perfectly safe fighting my favorite style "two stick" and I try to find a balance between safety and decent looks.

All that to say, it's going to vary from individual, according to their goals as fighters, and their goals towards their kits.

Trial and error is a quick teacher. I was trying to make an impression (darn womens cough) and showed up for a fighter practise wearing gambeson and 2 layers of maile. 1 stainless and a blackened byrnie over it. Damn did I look good. I could fight for all of 3 minutes before my good looks had me gasping for air and calling hold.

sorry for the rambling, but I'm just saying that to each his own, according to his needs.

cheers

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:19 pm

I've noticed a lot of the better fighters wear next to no armour as well.

For them the SCA is more of a sport.

For me, while I am an OK fighter, I fight for fun, and my kit is accurate and usually looks a lot better than the sport fighter.

While I may never be belted or win crown, I'm going to look damn sexy on the field.

Abaddon · Post by **Abaddon** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:54 pm

I thought this thread was going in a different direction!
I thought the poster was asking, "when is your collection of armour too large?"...the answer is of course, "never!".

And now you'll see how that dovetails nicely into the REAL topic.
I have accumulated so much armor now, that for the past couple of weeks I have been mixing and matching various parts out of differeing suits of armor to see which combinations work the best for SCA fighting.
I try to mix only suits of armor that are from the same period, so that the substitutions are not too obvious. What I have found is that full armor can be just as fast if you get the right fit and style that matches your fighting style. Pauldrons, rarebraces, vambraces, cuisses, sabatons...the works. I just recently tried my 15th century stainless arms with the floating elbows...stellar range of movement...the lack of rivets in the articulation (they are just tied on) allows the elbow to go in any direction the arm goes...I find them much lighter and more comfortable than all my other arms. But I never wore them before because they came with a breastplate and gorget that I found to be too confining. I now wear them with a CLANG COP (see the red thingy on his website...that's mine!) and a klappvisor bascinet.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:00 pm

There are _a lot_ of really crappy fighters that wear little to no armour too.

Many of the really good fighters don't need to wear anything because they don't get hit.
There are many Royal peers that wear full rigs (or so i'm told

). They must all live in the West and An Tir.

Wear enough that you don't get hurt, too much. Wear what your persona would have worn.

Angus Bjornssen · Post by **Angus Bjornssen** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:30 pm

and if your persona is Conan? :twisted:

Patton Lives · Post by **Patton Lives** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:37 pm

Conan O'Brien? "Thats some great armor"

"FOR ME TO POOP ON"

Animal · Post by **Animal** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:46 pm

For years I fought in essentially vambraces and greaves and a helmet. As I've gotten more of a taste for the finer things in life I've gone to a full coat of Mongol heavy cavalry lamellar, bazubands and hidden legs. Trying very hard to look like what I think I wolda looked like. I havent noticed it cutting down on my performance at all. I think I fight better knowing that I look cool.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:59 pm

Go read some Conan. The original Robert E. Howard stuff, not the modern hollywood-tainted crap. Conan wears armour whenever he can get it, and very often wears at least a mail shirt, sometimes even full plate.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:11 am

I wear about 41#s, and I don't think it hinders me that much. Ask the people I fight. :wink:

Kerrick · Post by **Kerrick** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:14 am

Hmmm, thanks for the interesting wide range of post. As far as what direction I was heading with this, really I was kinda interested in both. How much is too much armor to wear and also How much is too much armor to have.

Thanks All,
Kerrick

Jakob Hilditonn · Post by **Jakob Hilditonn** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:53 am

Kerrick wrote:Hmmm, thanks for the interesting wide range of post. As far as what direction I was heading with this, really I was kinda interested in both. How much is too much armor to wear and also How much is too much armor to have.

Thanks All,
Kerrick

I think the point that these guys are making subliminaly is that YOU need to decide.. Its my understanding that with the proper training you too can fight as well in full plate as in a leather thong and a spangen helm ;-)

Personaly, after spending my first couple of "Practices" geting meatballed by the "oh so friendly" other fighters, I made a comitment to cover more of my body as a means of self protection.

After discovering this board, lurking around the forum for a while, and seeing some of the great kits out there, I have dedicated my self to fighting in something that at least resembles something authentic for my time period AND fully protects me. An have noticed that the better I look the better I fight ;-)

Considering what I throw on everyday at work, Kevlar Helmet, Interceptor Vest with SAPI plates, M9 +45rnds, Day Pack......etc.... My SCA kit aint nuthin'.

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:51 am

Too much? Any piece of armour that weighs noticeably more than what your historical model wore on that part of their body is probably too much. If you keep your focus on imitating a historical model then you won't have to worry about getting excessively weighted down or cheating by wearing too little.

I think the bad reputation of plate in the SCA is based on people trying to wear mild steel armour thick enough to prevent denting under multiple blows from powerhitters. This is well intentioned but self-defeating, because the historical armour (based on my limited study of the matter) tended to be both lighter and harder than modern mild steel. For most visible armour tempered spring steel in thin (historically accurate!) gagues is probably the best available answer. Stainless seems to be another reasonable compromise that provides more acceptable performance/mass than mild steel. Some people feel that titanium or aluminum provide an acceptable appearance at a more appropriate mass.

I think your visible armour should look and wiegh as close to the original as possible, and any additional safety gear should weigh as little as possible. This will give the best available sense of how a medieval fighter felt and remove any taint of "cheating" from your combat.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:56 am

I think the bad reputation of plate in the SCA is based on people trying to wear mild steel armour thick enough to prevent denting under multiple blows from powerhitters. This is well intentioned but self-defeating, because the historical armour (based on my limited study of the matter) tended to be both lighter and harder than modern mild steel. For most visible armour tempered spring steel in thin (historically accurate!) gagues is probably the best available answer. Stainless seems to be another reasonable compromise that provides more acceptable performance/mass than mild steel. Some people feel that titanium or aluminum provide an acceptable appearance at a more appropriate mass.

What I love is when I see people who stomp around in 1/4" mild, for the above reasons, who complain that Titanium, Stainless, or spring is "cheating".

I think we should do our best to recreate.. and if we cannot get period steel, use whatever has the best approximation.. the number of times I haev had "But if they had it they WOULD have used it" as justification makes my mind boggle. My response is usually.. "Yup.. and if they had a BLU bomb, they wouldnt have bothered showing up and you would have lost.. whats your point?"

Maeryk

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:24 pm

Kerrick wrote:I just purchased another set of armor, I must admit that I am excited to get it and try it on. But I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t help but wonder when do you have too much armor on. I have been watching some of the better fighters. And they donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t have things like spaulders or breastplates or really much more then a kidney belt and elbow and knee cops. BdeB, a fighter to me who embodies chivalry, once put up a post asking this same thing. So what does everyone think? How much armor is too much, and at what point do you start losing your edge because of unneeded weight?

Hi John, so that's your SCA Name! :lol:

First off, thank you for the compliement, that means a lot to me. Like I told you, the earlier thread was just trolling. I was trying to provoke a response. As has been said before, this site tends to draw folks that are intersted in armour, and sometimes to the exclusion of fighitng. What is important is that you find what is comfortable for you, and what looks good. I am more than happy to open my home to you and your kid if you want to come some time and work on your kit. (I'll be at Tir Y Don this weekend for thier event if you want to come hang out and fight some, BTW)

I love to see Men at Arms arrayed as they were in period. I also love to see excellent fighting. The two aren't always exclusive. We are lucky that a number of our better fighers here in Atlantia are setting an example by wearing beatiful armour that is still competitive to fight in.

I freely admit that I wear sports armour, but every single bit that is showing on my kit is armour, not hockey gear crap. (*Sigh* Tho I think I am going to have to train with a modifiied lacross arm for the next couple of weeks to see if that helps some of the strain on my arm...)

As to your armour, your new rig looks accetable and what we might be able to do is play around with removing a couple of pieces and having you fight that way and see if you are more comfortable. If you notice no difference, then we can add them back. If you do then you can save them for Pas's and fancier tourneys. There are a lot of options.

His Grace Ragnarr has full metal arms for just such occasions, for instance, but wears his very nice plastic (covered) studded vambraces with a simple cop for most of his fighting. And he looks pretty darn cool.

Right now, i'd say that you are too new to worry too much about this stuff. We can look at it and adjust as needed. But the big thing I want to see from you is you fighting as much as possible and learning like a sponge soaks up water.

Anyway, back to work...

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:43 pm

Well.. if someone here thinks armor will prevent one from being competitive, I would like to point to these pictures of Duke Uther winning his fifth Western Crown.

http://history.westkingdom.org/Year38/Photos/MC88.htm
http://history.westkingdom.org/Year38/Photos/MC73.htm

He's covered by steel or hardened leather armour pretty much everywhere except maybe his uppper arms (although I think he has leather there, too).

Armor isn't what slows one down, lack of skill and practice does. Just make sure that you can call blows, and that everything fits well.

The good thing about wearing armor is that you can practice longer and more often, as you are not covered in bruises when you are done

.

-Dmitriy

gmandragora · Post by **gmandragora** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:04 pm

Too much armor is when you can't reliably call a blow. Otherwise. Pick an image (preferably historical, avoid hysterical) that you want to be. Let that guide you.

Geoffrey

Patrick · Post by **Patrick** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:28 pm

Geoffrey hits on something very important. When I was fairly new (a few months in armor) I added a fauld and tassets to my breastplate because I was sick of the bruised hip (I wanted to use that round shield and would prefer to change the armor over switching to a heater - possibly dumb of me). I found that I suddenly wasn't getting hit in the hip anymore! Umm, no, actually I honestly didn't feel it at all. Armor can work too well is my conclusion. I cut them off and switched shields so I could avoid getting a bad reputation.

This also points out why you should not assume a person is a rhino until you know you are hitting unprotected spots. He might not feel it at all. I didn't.

How much is too much to own? Well, if you can't park your car in your garage because you have so much armor, that might qualify. Otherwise, I'd say that if you can actually maintain all of it and keep it up, you probably don't have too much.

How much is too much to wear? As has been said above, if you can't fight in it at all, you are wearing too much. If you are getting back pains and muscle strains, you are wearing too much. Otherwise, cover any place you are concerned about getting hit. Like most Archivers, I prefer to see a period-appropriate appearance, but don't be so limited by the appearance that you refuse to protect something that needs it.

-Patrick

Animal · Post by **Animal** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:18 pm

Hi Dmitriy!
Was that a madu in that guy's mitt?
The buckler part was bad ass! Did that guy make it himself? Where do I get one?? That rocked!

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:42 pm

Dmitriy wrote:Well.. if someone here thinks armor will prevent one from being competitive, I would like to point to these pictures of Duke Uther winning his fifth Western Crown.
-Dmitriy

Actually, that doesn't qualify as a lot of armour in my book. A lot of protction, yes. But not a lot of armour. He has no greaves or sabotons. No plate. No coat of mail. Nothing which does not fit into our "sport" ideas of a kit. He doesn't even have any significant articulation. Everything looks very lightweight and sporty.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great kit and I mean no insult to the man. He looks mighty spiffy, but I don't see that is an example of a guy winning a major tournament with a lot of armour.

I like to see people fight in more than just pads and a kidney belt, but I'm not a fanatic about it and I'm not going to criticize anyone else's aesthetic choices as long as they ARE aesthetic choices and not just plain laziness of lack of caring (clearly Uther went to lengths to have a good kit). Wear however much armour you want as long as it doesn't get in the way of the more important issue of how you call your blows.
If you like the look but think you CAN'T wear more amrour, try out some of the better quality stuff that's armound these days. You might be surprized.

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:36 pm

Animal -- I am not the right guy to ask about that.

Gaston -- He's wearing splinted greaves, and metal lamellar (which, by virtue of overlap, weighs more than the equivalent breastplate). The quisses are steel under the leather, iirc. Just because it's made to fit and to work doesn't mean it's not armor.. I mean, if you go by the lightweight parameter, one could be wearing head to toe reproduction high carbon hardened armor, and still be "sporty".
His stuff is made to give him the correct look, lots of protection ("armor" him if you will

), and not hamper his performance... Which is why it's applicable here. It's a lot, and a far cry from the "pad boy" standard that often gets pushed as a way to gain an edge, yet it doesn't iterfere with his performance. So the answer to the original question is -- too much is when you are fighting your armor instead of your opponent. Make the stuff fit, make it work with yu, and you can make a full Milanese suit work on the field. Good armor makes judging blows hard -- that's the only danger.

-Dmitriy

Animal · Post by **Animal** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:40 pm

Ok Dmitriy, who would you suggest I ask?

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:26 pm

animal,

looking at the picture it appears to me that he has one of those plastic baldar hilts simply attached to the rattan and the metal part seems to just have a hole cut to fit the hilt. it also appears that he has pipe clamps (muffler clamps) holding the metal disk, and possibly the hilt, to the rattan.

but thats just a guess after studying the picture.

regards
logan

Animal wrote:Ok Dmitriy, who would you suggest I ask?

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:00 pm

Dmitriy wrote:Gaston -- He's wearing splinted greaves

Oops

I was looking at the wrong guy in the fighting picture. That guy has more armour than the other and it is a decent amount, though still not a poster child for a "lot of armour". The other guy actually looks better because he has a more consistent time period.

AllenJ · Post by **AllenJ** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:03 am

If you are really getting into it I think that the 3/4ths harness is kinda the sweet spot. Great protection on the vitals and a lil extra to help with deflections but not all encompasing as to slow you down too much. It really has to do with how you look at combat. If you know you arent going to get hurt or die in your sport, then you'll want less. But these people in the past layered the stuff on (when, where, and if applicable) because there was that risk. You get someone in full plate and your little wrap shot or snap hit aginst a grill isnt going to do a thing. Hence the reason why 3/4 ths of fight manuals (of those depicting armored fighting) involved grappling, dagger techniques and half-swording. It wasnt a game of tag.

How much is too much?

How much is too much?

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Re: How much is too much?