Period Helm Liners.....

newfghtr · Post by **newfghtr** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:51 pm

I am currently laid up after knee surgery and quietly going out of my mind

What are the suggested hole sizes and inset from edge of helm for sewing in a period style helm liner?This will be for a Bascinet and will tell you up front I am a little nervous about putting all those little holes in my helm....would drilling or a #5 whitney be best? it is a mild steel hat.
Will be following the directions Stephen of Forth Castle has posted on his site for the liner.

Thanks !!
Newfghtr

JPT · Post by **JPT** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:11 pm

Definitely the whitney punch if you have access to one ... much much easier all the way around.

Angus Bjornssen · Post by **Angus Bjornssen** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:46 pm

i concur.

though i don't have a whitney punch i would use it over a drill any day of the week and twice on tuesday

. the only way to be as accurate with a drill would be to use a scratch awl to hammer in a divot then use drill bits intended to bite into steel without "walking". there is still a drawback to the drill though... even with a pilot divot and bits made to drill steel, the bit may "walk" a little, but less than a millimeter usually, before the bit has penetrated to it's maximum diameter.

as far as i understand, a punch is faster too.

so....

if the highest amount of hole placement accuracy is required for what you want to do then use a punch. If not then a drill will do.

Angus

Ambrogio · Post by **Ambrogio** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:00 am

There are many different hole sizes and insets, but I would go with a hole slightly bigger than your needle and thread approx 3/32" and an inset of 7/32" or 1/4" and I would have a spacing between 1/4" and 1/2"

I like it when there is a LOT of holes, it looks like someone really wanted it that way instead of a sloppy "oh, I better put some holes in this bucket"

What kind of thread do you use to sew the lining in place?
I use dental floss it is a really sturdy thread, with a nice fresh smell to it.

No really, I do use it.

And I would use the Whitney! You won't have to deal with as much deburring if you use a punch, but you still have to deburr...

Jan van Nyenrode · Post by **Jan van Nyenrode** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:50 am

But don't you always make a little dip in de steel with a center punch? And if you just drill carefully insted of full pressure from the start at an angle it won't walk.
I mean I think you just said you don't center punch it and just put the drill on the steel but I can hardly believe it. I mean you do center punch right?? else it'll go everywhere. And with big holes you need to dril a smaller hole before you make the bigger one if you wanna do it really proper.

Greetings

Max

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:54 am

And about the maximum set-in from the helmet's bottom edge is 3/16".

And have you poked around Firestryker Living History Forum for some ideas about bascinet and camail linings in one piece? Such lining, in combination with an arming-coif, does some interesting things both in protection and in achieving the concave-cone drape so often seen with camails -- that doesn't seem to quite happen without a liner underneath. Hides your regulation gorget, too.

http://www.wolfeargent.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi is Firestryker.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:37 am

Punching or drilling will work, but I highly recommend punching - it is what I did. Not only is punching faster (much), but you are much less likely to screw up your helm by scratching a huge, ugly, swirly scratch along the side of it when the drill bit walks away.

Also, I would center-punch all of your holes even when punching them, so that the small divot on the punch will "find" the correct hole location when you bring the punch over where you want the hole. If you do not do this, it is difficult to exactly position the punch over something like, say, a Sharpie-pen mark. This way you get a nice, neat row of holes instead of a wandering zig-zag.

I think I used the smallest punch available with my knock-off Harbor Freight punch.

Steve

newfghtr · Post by **newfghtr** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:56 am

How big a difference did going to the period liner make in fit and comfort as well as that" feeling of protection" we get when we put on a helm ??
Am currently planning to use good linen thread to sew it in,if not available in this area will go with the thread supplied with a leather sewing awl,seems to be pretty sturdy stuff.
As to the de-burring we ARE talking some small holes and I dont know if the typical de-burring tool would work.

Thanks for the input so far,its all being taken to mind.Once this project kicks off I'll post progress pics.

Thanks !!

newfghtr · Post by **newfghtr** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:58 am

How big a difference did going to the period liner make in fit and comfort as well as that" feeling of protection" we get when we put on a helm ??
Am currently planning to use good linen thread to sew it in,if not available in this area will go with the thread supplied with a leather sewing awl,seems to be pretty sturdy stuff.
As to the de-burring we ARE talking some small holes and I dont know if the typical de-burring tool would work.

Thanks for the input so far,its all being taken to mind.Once this project kicks off I'll post progress pics.

Thanks !!

Ambrogio · Post by **Ambrogio** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:50 pm

Use a drill bit to deburr the holes, a couple of sizes bigger than the hole should do. Just hold it between your fingers and twist it.

Twistin' twistin' twinstin' the night away!

That's what I do. Even if I have punched the holes.

Mike Garrett (Orc) · Post by **Mike Garrett (Orc)** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 6:28 pm

Linen thread can be found on ebay if not available in your area. If not give me a shout and I should be able to get you some and send it your way, with my compliments.

"I'm wearing a bishops hat because Cardinal Chunder put it there, I have an ostrich feather up my bottom to keep the little pixies in and I'm wearing an inane grin because I'm just about to con you out of a massive inheritance........"

Erik Schmidt · Post by **Erik Schmidt** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:29 pm

I centre punched and drilled the holes. The measuring and marking took the longest, so I didn't see the drilling as being too time consuming. I also deburred with the drill, using an old blunt bit and a slow drill speed. It's too painful and slow to twist the bit with the fingers.

There are 70 all up, spaced at 12mm at 6mm from the edge. The holes are approx 2mm.
That's based on looking at period examples. Some where spaced closer or further apart, but the hole size is pretty consistent. On period examples the holes are often not so neatly palced either.

<img src="http://home.armourarchive.org/members/erik/Bascinet 1 front.jpg">

Erik

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:28 pm

I've been considering trying this for a while but I have one concern.

What about when your liner gets really dirty? Right now I have foam that is not attached and I wash it after every practice. I have grown accustomed to the joy of a clean liner and a helm that doesn't stink.

So how does it work out for you guys?

Ambrogio · Post by **Ambrogio** » Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:04 am

Wear a coif underneath to save the lining from dirt and when it is to dirty just cut the thread pull it out and wash it. The stitching doesnt take too long. A friend of mine made slightly bigger holes in the helmet and stitched buttonholes around the liner and used a lace to keep it in place. It could quickly be removed for washing, pretty neat!