Chauses and braies

OlafWulfbrandt · Post by **OlafWulfbrandt** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:36 pm

I posted this to the AOTC list as well as AuthenticSCA list as well but here goes please help also if you know the answer.

I am sure this question has been posted many time just not while I was paying attention. I have looked thru my copy of MOL textiles and clothing as well as Fashion in the age of the Black Prince and I am still unable to find the answer to the question.

When did Braies become the same color as the Chauses instead of the customary white color? Any help would be appreciated somehow showing white braies with yellow hose isint my idea of good fashion but striving to be period is. For reference my Persona is 1380 German Man at Arms serving the House of Anjou in France during the English quest for word domination.

Ich Dien

Olaf Wulfbrandt

GroÃƒÅ¸artiger Meister

Haus Gebrochen BrÃƒÂ¼cke

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:05 pm

Huh? As far as I know, Braes (linen underwear) are universally white through the 14th & 15th C. Chauses & hosen are usually colored wool.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:30 am

Petrus/Peder found these examples of non-white braies:

http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/ ... 006310.JPG (blue/black)
http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/ ... 002897.JPG (tan, guy on left cross, could be symbolic for the stained nature of the thief's soul)
http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/ ... 000768.JPG (black/blue)
http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/ ... 001956.JPG (green speedo's :wink:

"Klauenmartyrium des Hl.Vitus")
http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/ ... 002148.JPG (a couple more thieves showing their underalls)

These are mostly in Austria, 1450- early 16thC.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:04 am

A couple more:
http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/ ... 006953.JPG (light blue, prob symbolic since some sort of lb chain is around the ankles)
http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/ ... 005701.JPG (dark b/w pic)
http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/ ... 011494.JPG (several to choose from)

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:08 am

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:32 am

Thanks for sharing. That is quite an interesting collection of images and requires further study. Especially interesting is that the color of the undergarments is variable within several individual images.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:35 pm

I wonder if the colors have meaning, all of these paintings are of saints or sinners. I don't see them in French or Flemish art. Hmmmm.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 12:54 pm

According to Christian theology, isn't everyone a sinner? :wink:

Primvs Pavlvs · Post by **Primvs Pavlvs** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:16 pm

any man who wears green speedos is a sinner!

Primvs Pavlvs · Post by **Primvs Pavlvs** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:17 pm

any man who wears green speedos is a sinner!

Griffin · Post by **Griffin** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:14 pm

I was wondering the same as James. Linen does not take well to dying with natural products. I know you can get pale colors from madder and woad. Not sure how well weld or other dye products would have worked. If you dont want to use white all the time, I believe linen in its natural state tends toward a pale gray color.

GrÃƒÂmr

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:30 pm

I'm not so sure about that...I have a friend who has done an awful lot of textile research...maybe i'll point her to this thread.

As to the colors, Olaf: PFah!

I'm going to be wearing white braises with gold chausses this weekend, and I intend to look stunning! :twisted:

Or, at least, as good as I can...

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:31 pm

IIInnnteresting. Brent is a true research guru.

Regarding the original question, I see colored braes, but no brae-chausse/hosen-color matching. It's the usual medieval polychromapalooza of colors, where modern sensibilitties would go for complementary or matching colors.

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 6:19 pm

Griffin wrote:I was wondering the same as James. Linen does not take well to dying with natural products. I know you can get pale colors from madder and woad. Not sure how well weld or other dye products would have worked. If you dont want to use white all the time, I believe linen in its natural state tends toward a pale gray color.

GrÃƒÂmr

Who says that they have to be linen? I believe in the Hull Friary finds (still waiting for details...), there's evidence of wool being used for braies.

http://www.hullcc.gov.uk/archaeology/hullmc.htm

Six of the early 15th-century male burials wore fine woollen underclothing - the earliest evidence for underpants in Britain?

-Charlotte

Wolf · Post by **Wolf** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:33 pm

WOOL UNDIES?????????????????????????? hmmmmmmm shaffy-waffy. ouchy hmmm wait hmmm sexy? hmmm no ouchy

Primvs Pavlvs · Post by **Primvs Pavlvs** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:16 pm

uummm maybe cashmere(sp) wait??? whats that red spot?

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:30 pm

Wolf wrote:WOOL UNDIES?????????????????????????? hmmmmmmm shaffy-waffy. ouchy hmmm wait hmmm sexy? hmmm no ouchy

What ARE you saying Chuck!?

Good point on the wool, Char. Wool didn't always mean scratchy - there are fine wools that are outright silky.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:05 am

James B. wrote:I wonder if the colors have meaning, all of these paintings are of saints or sinners. I don't see them in French or Flemish art. Hmmmm.

I'd say that it was all religious art, but there doesn't seem to be any consistency. Some colored undies were on Jesus, some on both of the thieves (only one of which died unrepentent), some on one or the other. In groups of multiple martyrdoms, only some are wearing the colored braies.

It may be that it was primarily a collection of religious art that he was brousing through. There isn't much secular art for most of the middle ages.