14th C european scale skirts question.

[Mad Matt]

Ok well for the SCA starter kits that I'm making I'm making a prototype for myself. So I'm making myself a full harness. Basically the deluxe version with the non-deluxe CoP. So in the 14th c often scale skirts were worn. My CoP will come to waist length or I might put my globosse cuirass with it. So my questions are these.

Attachment: Would it be done with a split in the skirt that runs on a diagonal so the scales don't step in and out on the split or would it be done straight with the scales stepping in and out. Or would it be done with no opening and if so how do I get it to stay on my waist?

Materials: I'm going to be using leather as a backing material and 16 gauge mild steel scales attached with either copper rivits or roofing nails (probably roofing nails). Anyway are the steel scales appropriate or should they be hardened leather. I'm going to use the steel ones anyway but I want to be able to tell people that it's not historically accurate if it isn't.

Yes I know 16 gauge is waaaaaaay too heavy for scales. But I cut out over 300 of them a long time ago before I knew any better so I figured this might be a good use for some of them.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

[Alcyoneus]

One coat of plates I was looking at from about 1500 (don't remember exactly, but it was pretty late), had rather small plates. No sleeves to mention, and it didn't go much below the waist. It weighed 24 pounds. It had a lot of rivets, but not they wouldn't weigh THAT much, so the plates in this suit must have been significant.

[Mad Matt]

That would be a brigandine. And the plates wouldn't be 16gauge likely around 18-20. The rivits do weigh a fair bit but basically the overlap of the plates means that the plates are almost completly doubled for the area. ie. 2 thick.

I'm guessing you're talking about the 16gauge scales. With the overlap they're just too heavy. I think my box of 320 scales weighs a little over 35 pounds. That's basically enough to make a vest and skirt with shoulder flaps if there's no horizontal overlap. But basically much thicker then necessary. And if you don't need the extra weight then it shouldn't be there.

If you're talking about the waist length Coat of plates. Then I've seen them in a few effigies. They're often accompanied by a mid thigh length scale skirt or sometimes just maille. 14th C globosse cuirasses are also seen in artwork worn with a scale skirt.

And of course it's the 14th century so there's a hauberk underneath of it.

But basically 14th century armour is very heavy. Not the individual aspects of it but the fact that there are many layers.

During the transitional period it began with plain maille and basically through the 14th century various plate defences were added with more coverage and larger plates (with the exception of brig which got smaller plates) developing. During this time the same maille was kept underneath. Then when you advance into the 15th century things get lighter with the development of simply wearing maille skirt (or faulds only) and the use of patches of maille attached to the arming doublet. This is largely due to the fact that backplates were not common during the 14th century. Maille on the back only would unbalance things and generally just be sort of uncomfortable. I imagine they were also reluctant to give up the traditional maille which was tried and true in the past. Basically not putting all their faith in these newfangled plate defenses that keep changing every few years.
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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

[This message has been edited by Mad Matt (edited 08-21-2001).]

[Bartok]

Totally guessing here, but I'd probably do a staggard finish to the scales where you put your slit and overlap the closing with a side with half scales.

I'd also put the slit in the back where a lady's skirt has it's zipper. The small of your back doesn't seem like a period prime target so a nice spot for lacing/buckles.

Bartok

[Mad Matt]

Hmm. Silly me I never thought of cutting some of the scales in half. Good idea.

I do know that the diagonal method was done I just don't know about europe. I put great faith in Norman's research and his drawings on his silk road research site show closures in eastern scale armours done with the diagonal method.

Course I'm figuring the location of his drawings from memory. (bad Matt) perhaps I should go back and read his page again just to make sure he doesn't mention europe.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

[Ernst]

Seems I've got a page from an illuminated mss. in one of my calligraphy texts which shows numerous scale skirts. IIRC one shows a back view with globose, and both fasten at the back with straps and buckles. I'll see if I can find the exact page for you.

I always presumed that the skirt would be attached to those big hip belts, and fastened at the back.

[Mad Matt]

I'd kind of figured they'd close at the back since I've only got reference material that shows from the front and there's no seam in any of them.

If you see the illumination again could you just let me know if the split where the skirt closes goes straight down or on a diagonal.

Of course now that you mention illuminations I remember seeing plenty color artwork with metal scales. don't remember any leather ones although I'm just goin from memory and from one book of hours IIRC.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

[Ernst]

I found the miniature, but my memory is somewhat faulty. The publication is "The Illuminated Page Ten Centuries of Manuscript Painting" by Janet Backhouse, University of Toronto Press,1997. Plate 116 reproduces f2b from Royal MS 20C.viii: Honore Bonet (or Bouvet's) 'Larbre des Batailles' of circa 1400. The back view I referred to shows straps and buckles connecting over the back and skirt. The skirt, however, is of mail rather than scale There is a broad band running vertically on either side of the join, with the straps and buckles affixed to this broad leather(?) band.

There are several figures with scale skirts though. Most start at the wasp waist, not at a belt. One appears below a trimmed globose breast worn over mail. The breast side clearly stops, but the scale base wraps completely around. One scale skirt shows scales where the bottom edge is flat with clipped corners while most are rounded. The clipped corner example has doubled lines along the edges of the scale, which would seem to indicate a thick material such as leather. The rounded bottom ones often show a median ridge, and this is also shown on the thick scales, so maybe it's not leather????

[Edric]

Matt-
I am planning a similar project to go with my globose breast and backplate with all the metal scrap we have laying around the shop. I can't remember where I saw it, but I saw an effigy somewhere that showed the scale skirt riveted to the breastplate at the bottom.

This is what I had planned to do, rivet a scale skirt to the breastplate, and the backplate(which overlap slightly). Then depending on how it works out, either just leave it like that or tie the front and back together at the sides.

I'll look through some books tonight for that effigy, until then, don't quote me on it

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--Edric--
edric@edricsrose.com
http://www.edricsrose.com

Flos est puellarum, quam diligio, et rosa rosarum, quam sepe video.
"My love is a flower among virgins, and a rose among roses"

[Russ Mitchell]

as an aside: Honoré de Bouvet was a serious, high-level, seriously-taken thinker in terms of what we'd now call military ethics... if scale skirts showed up in HIS mss., you've got a winner in terms of items being acceptable.