Eureka! Criss-cross lacing

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:19 pm

This is a portrait of Lucrezia, Lorenzo the Magnificent's mother, by Domenico Ghirlandaio (1449-1494).

National Gallery of Art in DC
http://www.abcgallery.com/G/ghirlandao/ ... aio20.html

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:06 am

Servus!

QUICK! Is this painting a:

a) Primary source

b) Secondary source

c) Teritary source

or

d) None of the above

:twisted:

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:46 am

Well, I know you're joking, Alexander, but SCA-wise (in this area) it's a primary source; in other contexts (other SCA regions, art history in general, historical research in general), since it's a scan of a photo of a painting, it's a tertiary source at best.

(The painting itself would be a primary source for studying paintings of Ghirlandaio, Italian artwork, artistic style, etc.; but it'd be a secondary source for the dress and costuming details.)

Now, let's start discussing whether garment-lacing is an art or a science, and start really cruising down Omphaloskepsis Highway! :lol:

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:58 am

It's a source for cross lacing, in the mid to late 15th century, in Italy.

My pet peeve is that people would see this, say "It's period", and use it for 14th century France!

-Charlotte

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:06 am

Seen it! And what a coincidence - I'm actually currently studying late 15th century Italian paintings as a vacation from the 14th century stuff I have been doing. (Some people go to Florida for vacation - I just change time periods). Here's another painting from fifteen years later that shows the same kind of lacing:
http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/ ... flor5.html

Some of the discussion of the Lucrezia Tornabuoni painting that I have read says that it appears this is a double spiral lacing (two separate laces) rather than true criss-cross lacing like you would do on your tennis shoes (which uses one lace). Most portraits from this time and place show either spiral lacing or ladder lacing, and there are even some that show a herringbone style spiral lacing, which is pretty cool too.

The gown I am currently making will have some fancy little lacing rings like the above image. I'm a little conflicted about whether to offset the rings so that I can only spiral lace, or whether to put them side by side so that I can do either spiral or ladder lacing. Documentation for either - even have documentation for spiral lacing through the side-by-side style rings, so it really comes down to a matter of personal choice. Decisions, decisions.............

Gwyneth

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:01 am

Gwyneth wrote:Some of the discussion of the Lucrezia Tornabuoni painting that I have read says that it appears this is a double spiral lacing (two separate laces) rather than true criss-cross lacing like you would do on your tennis shoes (which uses one lace).

I thought that at first too, but then realized it's most likely "traditional" cross lacing. Double spiral lacing gives you the Xs all the way up the surface/front side, and horizontal bars all the way up the back. In this particular painting, it appears as if the front is split so you could see both. If it were double spiral laced it would look like Xs with horizontal lines between each one. Unless the back is behind the red part, but that seems unlikely to me, from the little I know about the construction and layers of this gown.

That said, a double spiral lace is much more sturdy, and makes it easier to achieve a consistent gap.

-Charlotte

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:27 am

Um... are folks here seriously suggesting that no cross-lacing was done in the middle ages? Can I buy a vowel?

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:38 am

Russ Mitchell wrote:Um... are folks here seriously suggesting that no cross-lacing was done in the middle ages? Can I buy a vowel?

You've got a pic or some sort of other evidence for it in the 14th/early 15th c? I'd love to see it. Can't prove they didn't, but yet to prove that they did.

I've seen pictures and statuary of spiral lacing, but not of cross lacing.
(I'm strictly speaking 14th/early 15th c.). If you have some, please share.

-Charlotte

Whose patron Saint is Doubting Thomas. Until I've seen it, I'll go with what I have evidence for.

Edited to add /early 15th.

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:49 am

For another interesting lacing structure, see:

http://www.mathildegirlgenius.com/galle ... 4/IMG_0908

Sorry the picture is so dark. It shows up ok on my laptop screen, but not on my desktop. It's a spiral lace, but after it's strung through the eyelet, it's wrapped around itself once. I would imagin this would add a little more strength.

I took this pic at the Philly art museum, and neglected to grab the citation this time. I have it somewhere, and will dig it up later. It's late 15th c. Italian.

-Charlotte

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Sat May 01, 2004 11:33 am

Hey Char - that's the herringbone style I was talking about. Another painting with this style of lacing can be seen here:

http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/ ... flor8.html

And ????? on your description of double spiral lacing? I have done a double spiral and managed to do it without *any* horizontal bars across the opening. If I had a digital camera, I'd take a picture and show ya'll what I mean. Looks just like regular tennis-shoe lacing from a distance, but there are two separate laces, rather than just one. Hard for me to describe in words. I'm going to borrow a digicam for the documentation of the gown I'm planning, so I'll try to remember to do lacing photos also.

And just as an update - I chose to do regular spiral lacing on my gown. There's plenty of documentation for it, and it holds the edges of the gown together better on my more-well-endowed figure than the ladder lacing does.

Gwyneth

Tracy Justus · Post by **Tracy Justus** » Sat May 01, 2004 1:12 pm

Here's a close up of the Ghirlandaio portrait.

Similar lacing rings (but a different lacing style) can be found on a roughly contemporaneous Carlo Crivelli painting of the Magdalene. It's #18. The site has some great close-ups but I seem to can't make a direct link.

Gwyneth, is the lacing under Mary Magdalene's arm the "double spiral lacing" you're talking about?

Clare

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Sat May 01, 2004 1:24 pm

Thanks for the close up! I had thought I'd found an example a week or two ago on some boots, I looked a little closer and saw that they were 'double spiral laced'. Cord from each side meeting in the middle, looping, and going back to their original side.

HugoFuchs · Post by **HugoFuchs** » Sat May 01, 2004 2:31 pm

Charlotte wrote:It's a source for cross lacing, in the mid to late 15th century, in Italy.

My pet peeve is that people would see this, say "It's period", and use it for 14th century France!

-Charlotte

My pet peeve is that it is late 15th century in Florence.
Italy is a 19th century invention.
It may not have been being used in Venice or Rome, nevermind elsewhere in Europe.

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Sat May 01, 2004 5:47 pm

Tracy -

Yay! Thanks for the close up of Lucrezia! What I find fascinating about that view is that it is now unclear to me whether those are lacing rings, or just embroidered lacing holes. On the left, the lacing appears to be going through the fabric as well as the lacing holes/rings, but on the right, it looks like it goes through just the holes/rings without passing through the underlying fabric. Interesting. I'm still leaning toward lacing rings, but the embroidery idea might also fly.

The detail of the Magdalene has single spiral lacing on the side and on the front, with ladder lacing on the cuff. Oooh, and check out on her cuff - it looks like the ends of the lacing are attached to a hidden fastener somewhere on the inside of the sleeve......maybe a clue to the mysterious no-dangly-ends-on-sleeves that you see on so many pre-1500's Florentine women...........

Gwyneth

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Sat May 01, 2004 5:59 pm

Hey guys - definitely evidence for decorative lacing RINGS on one of those Crivelli paintings. It's # 17, the gal on the upper left-hand side. Her overgown definitely has decorative lacing rings, set for spiral lacing. The overgown is partially unlaced, and you can see that the lacing hole is set out from the fabric of the gown. The entire ring with the decorative part is as big as her fingernail. The ones I have are a comparable size, so I'm pretty comfortable using them now. Whew! Ya'll had me worried there for a bit!

Gwyneth
drooling over the new detail pics on that site

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Sun May 02, 2004 6:12 pm

HugoFuchs wrote:My pet peeve is that it is late 15th century in Florence.
Italy is a 19th century invention.
It may not have been being used in Venice or Rome, nevermind elsewhere in Europe.

Hee hee! Touche' - you got me!

-Charlotte

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Sun May 02, 2004 6:21 pm

Gwyneth wrote:Hey Char - that's the herringbone style I was talking about. Another painting with this style of lacing can be seen here:

http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/ ... flor8.html

Cool. I didn't realize it had a name, but I think it would be very effective.

And ????? on your description of double spiral lacing? I have done a double spiral and managed to do it without *any* horizontal bars across the opening. If I had a digital camera, I'd take a picture and show ya'll what I mean. Looks just like regular tennis-shoe lacing from a distance, but there are two separate laces, rather than just one. Hard for me to describe in words. I'm going to borrow a digicam for the documentation of the gown I'm planning, so I'll try to remember to do lacing photos also.

Questions back, and I think I'm getting picture of what you're describing.

By two separate laces, do you mean that there's two ends at the bottom, and two ends at the top? Is this structurally different than having a fold at the bottom, and two ends at the top?

When you do the double spiral lace, how many passes of lace does a particular hole contain? Just one?

Here's how I imagine a tennis shoe lace. Up through the back on the right, cross, up through the back on the left, cross, repeat. Skip a hole on each side.

I'm imagining your description of a double spiral as up through the back on the right, cross, down through the front on the left, cross, repeat. Skip a hole on each side. So it spirals up, instead of weaving, but follows the same holes as the tennis shoe.

My version of double spiral is that each hole would have two laces going through. You don't skip a hole each time you go past. Basically, you'd do two spiral laces, one from each side. Honestly, I have no evidence for this done in period, but it's extremely secure. On a closed garment, it looks like a series of Xs going up the opening. Probably just a matter of wording, it seems.

-Charlotte

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Sun May 02, 2004 9:29 pm

Don't know if "herringbone" is the correct name or not - it's just a term I have seen used to distinguish that particular variation of spiral lacing.

The double spiral I do has two ends at the top and two at the bottom . But I suppose it doesn't *have* to be like that. If you start your spiral at the bottom and go up as if you are doing one side of a tennis shoe (skipping every other hole) then come back down the other side the same way, it would still be one lace, but a double spiral. The look you end up with is the same, but since you are doing only one spiral at a time, one lace will lay over the top of the other (rather than actually crossing over then under like they would if you were lacing both at the same time). For this method, you would have one hole to one lace, although I can see how your method would also work well. Get a big long shoelace and try it on a tennis shoe - you will see what I mean. It's a lot easier to show rather than tell.

Something interesting that showed up on one of those Crivelli paintings in close-up: I remember seeing a sleeve cuff or some other opening that appeared to have the "ladder" lacing style showing on the front, but it was slightly open showing a crossed lace going over the back. I'll see if I can dig up the reference for you so you can check it out and see what you think.

I'm *really* enjoying my vacation in late 15th c. Florence - can you tell?

Wonder where I should go next on the timeline?

Gwyneth

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Sun May 02, 2004 9:42 pm

You should stay in the 15th C. It's a wonderful place to be.

The pic Gwyneth posted:

http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/ ... flor5.html

That doesn't look like a regular cross lacing. Look how the lines don't stay straight where they cross - as if they interact at the intersection. Maybe a little twist right there?

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Sun May 02, 2004 11:09 pm

Gwyneth wrote:Get a big long shoelace and try it on a tennis shoe - you will see what I mean. It's a lot easier to show rather than tell.

Nope, I got it.

When you said "double-spiral" I was just thinking of something else.

Gwyneth wrote:Something interesting that showed up on one of those Crivelli paintings in close-up: I remember seeing a sleeve cuff or some other opening that appeared to have the "ladder" lacing style showing on the front, but it was slightly open showing a crossed lace going over the back. I'll see if I can dig up the reference for you so you can check it out and see what you think.

Hm. A ladder in the front, and crossed in the back? I'd like to see. Sounds like the back of the "Char-version-double-spiral". :wink:

Gwyneth wrote:I'm *really* enjoying my vacation in late 15th c. Florence - can you tell? Wonder where I should go next on the timeline?

Did you ever figure out 14th c. allegorical Roman? :wink:

Jeff J wrote:http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/earlyflor/3flor5.html

That doesn't look like a regular cross lacing. Look how the lines don't stay straight where they cross - as if they interact at the intersection. Maybe a little twist right there?

Dang, I missed that one on my first read-through! That's cool. Actually, I think that little twist would help with keeping a constant width on the opening, much like I think the "herringbone" would.

So, I started thinking about angles and tension, and all of that, in conjunction with lacing the other day. When I was new at this, and trying to lace a "supportive" gown with the modern cross lace, I always had problems with the fabric bunching up. But now that I spiral lace everything, I don't have that problem. It makes sense, because when you spiral lace, you're not skipping holes, so you have mostly horizontal tension, and little vertical tension. When you start skipping holes, the vertical tension can equal or even exceed the horizontal tension. So, what I'm wondering is, if the beginning of using boning or stays made the use of a more vertical style of lacing possible? AFAIK, the few examples that we see of a lacing style that skips holes tends to be in late 15th c. and 16th c. garments. I have yet to see this style on anything mid 15th c. or earlier (anybody?)

Just brainstorming here.

-Charlotte

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Mon May 03, 2004 10:23 am

How about this existing 15th cent jack? Original lacing or restoration?
http://home.arcor.de/loksley/gonfanon/g ... /index.htm

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Mon May 03, 2004 3:23 pm

One could speculate on these. From Talhoffer's 1459 edition;
http://img.kb.dk/ha/manus/th290/kamp0185.jpg
http://img.kb.dk/ha/manus/th290/kamp0188.jpg
http://img.kb.dk/ha/manus/th290/kamp0197.jpg
http://img.kb.dk/ha/manus/th290/kamp0203.jpg
and from the 1467 edition;
http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/th ... afel_5.htm (I think this is "herringbone" as it was called)
http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/th ... fel_48.htm
http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/th ... fel_54.htm
http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/th ... el_181.htm
these last two are perhaps more likely candidates than the rest.
-Mag =)

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Mon May 03, 2004 5:24 pm

Yeah Jeff - isn't that interesting? It could still be two laces rather than one, though.

Here's something else I was thinking about - if you have evenly-spaced holes and you spiral lace through them, you end up with one edge higher than the other, like in this painting: http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/ ... flor1.html
If you ran a second spiral lace through in the opposite direction, it would even out the edges of the garment and still allow you the same amount of support. From a purely practical POV, the double spiral seems like it would give more support rather than less; even with skipping holes and giving an appearance of criss-crossing. Dunno - haven't really tried it while actually wearing a gown.

Oh - and another little treat: a painting that clearly shows a definite criss-cross; unevenly overlapped crossing of the laces and all:
http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/ ... lor20.html
I'd love to see a closer image than this one if anyone can find it.

Char - I haven't given up on the 14th century interpretation of Classical Rome; but I can't really find anything that isn't more than weird hats. Sigh. I'll probably end up just going with my regular old 14th century stuff, or forgetting classical Rome and wearing one of my new Florentine creations. Or - maybe I could do a Rome-Through-The-Ages thing and have a different century for each day of the event? That might be fun!

Gwyneth

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Mon May 03, 2004 5:28 pm

I forgot to say in my last post - I really am doing research on more than one website. I know that all the links I have posted are to just one, but they are the largest, clearest images I can find without having to direct ya'll through a million different steps on some art website.

Gwyneth

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Mon May 03, 2004 11:15 pm

Russ Mitchell wrote:Um... are folks here seriously suggesting that no cross-lacing was done in the middle ages? Can I buy a vowel?

Russ,

Any chance you can share your sources? We've seen some here, but I'm sure you have many more.

Thanks!
Charlotte

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Thu May 06, 2004 9:16 am

Hey Russ - are you there? I want to second Charlotte's request for you to share your sources. My brain is hungry for more information - please help me feed it!

Gwyneth

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Thu May 06, 2004 4:44 pm

Gwyneth wrote:Yeah Jeff - isn't that interesting? It could still be two laces rather than one, though.

Here's something else I was thinking about - if you have evenly-spaced holes and you spiral lace through them, you end up with one edge higher than the other,

Not necessarily. I have my arming doublet spiral laced in a manner which precludes this. Here's what ya do:

Put the top pair of eyelets directly across from each other. Then, put the next eyelet on one side one space down and the eyelet on the other side one HALF space down. So you transition from eyelets directly across from each other to eyelets staggered. Them at the bottom, make the last eyelet on one side a half space down from it's predicessor for a final transition to eyelets facing each other. Thus:

o--o
o
---o
o
---o
o
---o
o--o

(had to use dashes - this program doesn't allow proper spaces)

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Sun May 09, 2004 12:31 pm

Oops - sorry - I was unintentionally vague there. I meant that if your holes are evenly spaced and directly across from one another (like on a tennis shoe) and you spiral lace through them, you will end up with the unevenness described. The holes you describe are "evenly spaced" in that they are an even amount of space apart, but the holes on each side are staggered in comparison to each other.

In my previous post, I was talking about double spiral lacing through holes that are directly across from one another for the length of the opening, rather than even at the top, then staggered, then even at the bottom. Sorry if my terminology was a little unclear.

So do you have any photos of the double spiral through your staggered holes? I'm interested to see how that works.

Gwyneth

Charlotte J · Post by **Charlotte J** » Sun May 09, 2004 12:40 pm

Gwyneth wrote:So do you have any photos of the double spiral through your staggered holes? I'm interested to see how that works.

Gwyneth

Gwyneth -

We'll have to wait on Russ - I think he's in Kalamazoo.

If you're asking about my version of the double spiral lace, I've used that with non-staggered holes. I don't really use it anymore, but I can take a picture sometime. I'm in another state now though, so hopefully by the end of the week!

Cheers,
Charlotte

Gwyneth · Post by **Gwyneth** » Sun May 09, 2004 12:51 pm

Actually, I was asking Jeff - but I wouldn't say no to pics of your method either!

Gwyneth