Kilts?

[Tearloch]

Hello all,

When did the ancient kilt exist?
Compared to the great kilt?

I am prestently heavy fighting and fencing... trying to make garb and armour that suits a highland Scot. I made mention to 12th C before, but I'm not a big fan of chain mail (takes a long time to make), nor plate. I've been thinking about a 'plated vest' type of upper armour (brigadine/coat of plates), but I need help with leg ideas. This falls within the late 13th C right? Other issues would be arm and knee protection.

Targes didn't come into play until around 16th C? Would they have used center boss round sheilds? I like Mace, (they came in around 12th) but is florintine mace a style anyone would actually use... ever?

Thanks,

Tearloch of Clan MacTrynfyr

[Ian Mac D]

As a person & fighter who portrays a late 16th century (late 1500s) highland Scott I will let you in on some of the info I have found.
The great kilt first appeared to be used in the highlands of Scotland in and about the 1570s and was probably derived from belting a brat (plaid shoulder cloak) at the waist to prevent from tripping and/or tangling weapons in it. As far as it is known kilts did not exist prior to the late 16th century. Noble highlanders (& islanders) would be most likely following the dress of the Irish & English nobles of the time (possibly 10-15 years behind in style). In your chosen time period the Norse still had a great influence so "viking" styles would still be evident. Here are a couple of sites I have found that have helped me to research highland fashion/clothing. They may be of some help.
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/celt-clothing/
http://www.medievalscotland.org/clothing/scotmen.shtml
http://www.gaddgedlar.com/index.html

Armor is a little more complicated in that we have less information to go on. Highland nobles tended to be less wealthy than their lowland bretheren so their armor was often 10-30 years behind the current fashion of the day. Armor would also be passed down from father to son (due to expense of new armor & the like). As a 12-13th century higlander you may not have had a lot of resources for your armor so hand-me-downs probably occured. You may have been attired in a padded jacket with possible plate (leather or iron/steel) reinforcements in vital areas. Chain mail hauberks (shirts) were often left over from Norse viking raids as well as English attacks. Leather and/or splinted vambraces (forearm armor) and greeves (shin armor) were also likely. Helmets tended to be the same as the rest of britain with the occasional oddity and left over occuring. Nasal conical spangenhelms, Kettle helms and simple skull caps have been found that date from the time and area.
My advice is to find armor that you are comfortable/safe in and if it doesn't quite fit the time you are in "cover" it with clothing and or disguise it in some manner. Just my 2 cents.

[Bob H]

Hello all,

When did the ancient kilt exist?
Compared to the great kilt?

Later than any period you mentioned, in fact, not even close to them. Sorry. "Ancient" is a very relative word, and in Victorian times could mean as little as 200 years prior. Now it generally connotes something prior to the decline of Rome, or earlier.

I am prestently heavy fighting and fencing... trying to make garb and armour that suits a highland Scot. I made mention to 12th C before, but I'm not a big fan of chain mail (takes a long time to make), nor plate. I've been thinking about a 'plated vest' type of upper armour (brigadine/coat of plates), but I need help with leg ideas. This falls within the late 13th C right? Other issues would be arm and knee protection.

From about 1250 or so a "reinforced surcoat" appears. A Google search for "St. Maurice" should yield a picture of an engraving that gives the general idea. There are a few examples of rigid limb defences to consider and it's very difficult in most cases to determine exactly the material used, I'd take a look at David Nicolle's "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Knight 1050-1350", the European volume (there are European and Middle Eastern volumes, and you sometimes find each as a 2-volume set. So much for clarity in titles.)

Targes didn't come into play until around 16th C? Would they have used center boss round sheilds? I like Mace, (they came in around 12th) but is florintine mace a style anyone would actually use... ever?

Double-any-weapon is difficult to document past the story of Brian Boru (and that's reaaaaallly iffy) and the later cased weapons of the Renaissance. The targe/dagger is more of a 17th-early 18thC system used against the musket/bayonet approach of English troops. Maces abound, but a lot depends on your exact persona. You'll have to narrow it down a lot as to year, social class, and exact location to get a good answer, and loyalties may also come into play for the Highlands (more aligned to England may mean a more English type of kit). There's a memorable account c1300 of Robert Bruce splitting an opponent's head with an axe, but that's still not a mace. The "romantic Highlander" is mostly a post-medieval thing from Victorian romances, medieval highland Scots were generally thought of by other Europeans/English as little more than wildmen.

If you're thinking about SCA I wouldn't worry much over my choices, but since this is the Research & Authenticity forum, I believe you're working under a handicap trying to make a kilted Highlander work well for you.

[AllenJ]

I can only really ditto what has been said. It's my oppinion that the great kilt (ancient? dont really know what the difference is here) would not belong in a pre 1600 world. Anything that did exist close to it certainly would not be in the bright tartans we see in later and modern kilts. To be safe and as authentic as possible you cant go wrong with the guys over at Gaddgedllar, as mentioned above. http://www.gaddgedlar.com
Im a huge fan of the kilt, and love wearing mine whenever possible (with or without reason ) but I know it belongs nowhere in a medieval setting. Especially 12th century. One aspect of Scottish history that I recently have fallen in love with is the Border wars/ disputes. This is right around the end of the SCA timeline and while it does not include kilts - there are some very good looking armour and culture of that period. Its the lowlands, not the highlands and there would be no maces, or florintine anything (thank god) , but we do start to see some early baskethilt and targe work there. You could go with a simple breast and back plate and 3/4th arms and legs and end up with a great period accurate look.

[Thomas Powers]

Things get a little confusing since some types of clothing in the ancient world (think BCE) are called kilts but are not like the late renaissance scottish kilts at all.

Some people have tried to link the two, or even the roman toga and the kilt, shudder; but that seems to be more a case of "victorian wish fullfillment documentation" rather than reality.

Allen J, since the kilt can be documented to the late 1500's does that not contradict your statement that they "would not belong in a pre 1600 world"?

Now if you had said "pre 1500" world I am quite in agreement with you. (and maybe even pre-1550!)

Thomas

[DanNV]

Allen J, since the kilt can be documented to the late 1500's does that not contradict your statement that they "would not belong in a pre 1600 world"?

As far as I have ever found, there is one quote which is used as "documentation" for kilts prior to 1600. Said quote can just as easily be a brat belted at the waist. There is no clear documentation fo a great kilt until after 1600. The small kilt was created by a factory manager much later yet.

So, IMO, no form of kilt is appropriate for the SCA.

Dan

[Hibernicus]

A: Kilt.


seriously....
Google: breacan feile

You'll get more info than you can use.

If you want to dress 12th - 13th C AD Scot look to Irish clothes and armor.

check this out:
http://www.albanach.org/leine.html

Hibernicus

[Thomas Powers]

Dan, I was thinking of a picture not a quote; but all my research info is somewhere in a moving truck between OH and NM right now.

Thomas

[Effingham]

And one other thing...

Please note that the name is pronounced CHAR-loH (where the "H" is the sound in the German "ach"), not TEER-lock.


Effingham

[Owen]

As a friend of mine says-

KILT: Slang term used to refer to the death of an individual.
(I done kilt him.)
NOT a garment worn by a 13th century Scot

[AllenJ]

Thomas Powers,
DanNV beat me to it. In my oppinion, this description is of a brat. The grey area may be in the material used. There was certainly some transition period between the saffron dyed material and the woolen tartan used later. There are some early check patterns that may have been observed - but these are certainly not tartan. So its possible we could have some of this early check in a brat pattern, documented- and 500 years later interpreted as a 'kilt'. I'll see what I can dig up in the next few hours as far as illustrated documentation goes.

[AllenJ]

Though the writer dosent quote any sources, here he says that there were "no kilts until the 17th century..." And this article is even from the SCA. http://www.sca.org/ti/articles/1996/iss ... gpipe.html look under the 'Recreating the Highland Bagpipe' section.
Here is another pretty well dosumented article with illustrations. Although I dont agree with everything in the article- I do agree with his statement about the kilt coming out after the 1600's. Here is the link: http://albanach.org/kilt.html . Go down to the 3rd picture and read the paragraph that wraps around that pic for the pertinant info. This is the earliest picture we have of the kilt and it IS post 1600.

[chef de chambre]

And one other thing...

Please note that the name is pronounced CHAR-loH (where the "H" is the sound in the German "ach"), not TEER-lock.


Effingham

Huh, Eff, my Scots Gaelic course had it pronounced 'Cheerlah', and that from the outer isles - it matches pretty well with the descriptions of the jacobites and their pronounciation of the 'Bonnie Prince's' name in the '45.

Tear Lock it ain't though.

[Effingham]

I'm pretty sure our pronunciations are the same. Hey, one man's la is another man's lo (I'm thinking "lot"). If we could do IPA here it would be easier.

Just as long as you're not going "TEER-" we're fine.

Effingham

[T. Finkas]

...Here is another pretty well dosumented article with illustrations. Although I dont agree with everything in the article- I do agree with his statement about the kilt coming out after the 1600's. Here is the link: http://albanach.org/kilt.html . Go down to the 3rd picture and read the paragraph that wraps around that pic for the pertinant info. This is the earliest picture we have of the kilt and it IS post 1600.

That's a pretty good article. I am going to either print as fodder against folks who preach pro-kilt-ism, or just put the URL on a business card and hand it out to "worthy cases" at Pennsic.

Cheers,
Tim

[Saverio]

Thomas Powers,
DanNV beat me to it. In my oppinion, this description is of a brat. The grey area may be in the material used. There was certainly some transition period between the saffron dyed material and the woolen tartan used later. There are some early check patterns that may have been observed - but these are certainly not tartan. So its possible we could have some of this early check in a brat pattern, documented- and 500 years later interpreted as a 'kilt'. I'll see what I can dig up in the next few hours as far as illustrated documentation goes.

It seems as though you are confusing two garments. The leine was the saffron colored garment made of linen.
http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/leine.html
The brat was the wool cloak, which could be solid or multi colored.

[Hibernicus]

There are some minor interpretation problems with the terms: "plaid" and "Scot" as used pre-17th C

Plaid and pleat are the same word. When someone say in the 16th C is writing about "plaid" he may be refering to what we call pleats and not to the woven in colored pattern called tartan

The term "Scot": Medieval and Renaissance writers on the Continent did not necessarily distinguish between Irish and Scottish. Thus, when you see the term "Scot" it does not automaically refer to people from what we call Scotland.

Hibernicus

[AllenJ]

Saverio- thanks for fixing me. i was thinking about one and wrote the other- my bad.

Yeah the english frequently called Scottish baskethilts, 'Irish' hilts along with just about anything of a Gaelic nature. Just the way it was.