New to the 14th century question

[James ap Llywelyn]

Hello all,
I have only been a registered member of the archive for a month or so, but it has been a favorite place for me for some time now. I am involved with SCA but lean towards the LH level of authenticity when I can. I was wondering if anyone might be able to shed some light on the harness seen in this picture by valentine armouries:

http://www.varmouries.com/tourney.html

I am specifically interested in the simple "soupcan" poleyns and the studded leg defense. I assume this is a "german" style, but have learned not to make assumptions lightly when armor is concerned. I own a hounskull bascinet, and on a whim I made some cuisses like the ones in the picture by peining 3/4 inch domed studs by hand. Now, in hindsight, I am trying to find an effigy or image or archeaological find that would put these things together in the same place/time. To further clarify, I am hoping they will land somewhere in the second half of the 14th century. Was there a time/place where the hounskul bascinet may have been worn but BEFORE the full articulated leg and arm defenses became popular? If not, I suppose I will make some arms and legs like those on the black prince effigy and live with it, but I am rather fond of the soupcans and the studded legs.
Thanks for your time,
James

[Gaston de Clermont]

A large percentage of illuminations and effigies don't include a face plate, since they wanted to show who was who, and knights may have ridden much of the time with the plate off so they could breathe and see.
What I did find (OK, I was lazy and only looked in one book) was this:
Arms and armour of the Medieval Knight by Edge and Paddock (great book, go buy it!) :
p. 74 Romance of Alexander 1338-44 (my guess it's Flemish, but maybe French) There are two guys wearing what look very much like soup cans, and possibly splinted legs, and bascinets. No face plates.
p. 75 An effigy of Sir Miles Stapleton, Yorkshire England. Not sure on the date, but he's wearing a bascinet with splinted greaves, studded cuisses and simple knees which may be like you're looking for.
Same page, there are several Italian images from an altar c. 1376. The guys wear simple knees, though not quite a soup can, since they have fans, but I don't see articulation. They're wearing rather rounded bascinets, almost like barbutes.
p. 80 has Hugh of Hasting's brass c1347. He's got simple knees, pointed, with fans, and he's wearing a globular helm with some sort of visor. There are a few little guys along the edge of his brass which look darn close to what you're looking for- a couple have what look like klapvisors, and simple knees, though I'd prefer to see a higher resolution image to be sure.
The most classic soup can knees I can find are on the Trumpington brass, p 56. he's 13th century, and has what's probably a sugar loaf helm under his head. I never noticed the rivet line between the skull and the skirt on that one... thanks for making me look.

The exact look Rob put together for the web page is a bit of a mix, though not a heinous crime. Much of the suit is quite late 14th century, and similiar to the pieces found in Churburg. The knees, while my examples above would indicate are period, are neither exclusively German (though possibly he based them on a German example), nor from what I can tell completely consistent with the rest of the kit. Soup can knees, studded cuisses, splinted greaves, a bascinet, and maybe a klapvisor I found. Full steel cuisses, a globose breastplate and a hounskull is probably stretching things.
All that said, you might find things to be more straight forward by copying a complete harness, rather than fitting together bits and being unsure. Say, "I want to look just like Sir Hugh of Hastings" or whoever you really dig, then assemble the kit.

[Fearghus Macildubh]

Charlotte posted this website in response to another question, but check it out www.gothiceye.com
Nothing but line drawings and rubbings of brasses and effigies. Mostly English.
http://www.gothiceye.com/pictures.asp?c ... &offset=36
The above page has knights who died mid 1300's, so their effigies should date within a few years of that. Several have studded cuisses. Pigface/hounskull helms date around 1370ish and later, so it's not impossible to have the combination shown on Valentine's page. I agree with Clermont, though, if you're shooting for dead on authentic, use an effigy or other period art as a base and work out from there.

[James ap Llywelyn]

Thank you, I will be ordering the book tonight! I think I should try to find a look I am after and recreate the suit to match, but it seems most of my "documentation" starts AFTER I make something and grow fond of it. Heh eh heh he, one of my vices I suppose. Thanks again.
James

[Erik Schmidt]

I am specifically interested in the simple "soupcan" poleyns and the studded leg defense. I assume this is a "german" style, but have learned not to make assumptions lightly when armor is concerned.

I am never sure what people mean by "soupcan". There are some that look like a can placed horizontally, with the ends on the sides of the knees. Those are not common, but do occur in German examples.

I own a hounskull bascinet, and on a whim I made some cuisses like the ones in the picture by peining 3/4 inch domed studs by hand.

I think I am safe in saying that there was no such thing as a studded armour in the 14th century. Studs by themselves would add nothing to the armour except weight. They do not improve the effectiveness of the armour against slashing, piercing or crushing and there has been no surviving examples found to indicate it ever existed. The studs are the visible rivet heads for the attachment of splint. So they are in fact splint cuisses.
Such armour was particularly common in Germanic areas, but was also used in other parts if Europe. It's peak use was from around 1340 to 1370 in Germany.

Now, in hindsight, I am trying to find an effigy or image or archeaological find that would put these things together in the same place/time.

That should be possible, but I don't have time to check my files for you. The trick is to find both on the same status person. That is, you need to find both on a knight or well armoured man-at-arms given that you are using a houndskull visor close to the date of it's introduction(only they could afford the latest armour). You can find almost any old armour on soldiers sometimes.
Good luck

To further clarify, I am hoping they will land somewhere in the second half of the 14th century.

They will.

Was there a time/place where the hounskul bascinet may have been worn but BEFORE the full articulated leg and arm defenses became popular?

Yes. The houndskull seems to have appeared around 1380 and the splint cuisses replaced by the plate cuisse around 1370. However, just because something was no longer common, does not mean it went out of use totally. The splint cuisses do still appear later than 1370 and in Germanic areas especially, the full articulation seems to have come in somewhat after that.

Sorry for the short reply. Just got back from a break.

Erik

[Otto von Aachen]

Erik,

About studs on armour- this effigy clearly shows some sort of studs or rivets BETWEEN the splints on the arm harness, so why are they there if they serve no defensive purpose? Decoration possibly? Im very interested in your thoughts on the matter, since this is the effigy my armour is copied from, and is always thought that the studs would be fairly effective at catching blows that happened to fall between the splints.
btw, this is the effigy of otto von steinberg, 1379, and has a pretty good view of what most peopl call "soupcan" knees
http://www.bildindex.de/fotos/mi/058/04 ... 04c05a.jpg

[Cory Nielsen]

About studs on armour- this effigy clearly shows some sort of studs or rivets BETWEEN the splints on the arm harness, so why are they there if they serve no defensive purpose?

One possibility I've read is that those studs represent rivets holding a splint on the inside of the piece. Having splints alternating on the outside and inside of a vambrace would definitely make it more protective.

[Otto von Aachen]

It would also make them incredibly uncomfortable to wear though, and im not sure it would really mold to your arm very well that way. I suppose its possible....

[Alienor]

I'm not sure we can take this effigy as representative or typical, though. In addition to the debatable vambraces, he's also wearing something that looks like a muscled cuirass. It seems entirely possible that both may be fantasy.

Alienor

[Cory Nielsen]

True enough about the odd breastplate, but that style of vambrace appears on many other effigies.

[Otto von Aachen]

Alienor- To my mind its very doubtful that any part of the effigy is fantasy, as such effigies generally were supposed to be as perfect a representation of the person as the artist could manage. It's possible we are interpeting what were seeing incorrectly though-ive discussed that particular breastplate with quite a few of the top names in the armouring community, and the only consensus seems to be that its some sort of a solid breastplate thats either been mascled, or possible covered with some sort of quilted cloth which would give it that mascled look seen in the effigy. Thats the last piece of the harness im having recreated, and its the one thats caused me the most headache researching, since it is so unusual.

[Erik Schmidt]

Otto, it is generally thought, as Albrecht stated, that the studs hold splints on the inside. I don't see that such a construction would be either uncomfortable or inflexible.

You are indeed brave for choosing to copy the von Steinberg effigy
The effigy certainly has a very good example of the 'soupcan' poleyns, possibly the only such example from Germanic effigies. Other examples of poleyns with the flat sides and a can-like body that I know of have very high ridging running vertically. Usually 3 to 5 ridges.
Such poleyns tend to be seen around the middle of the 14th century although a good example can be seen on the kneeling figure of Hüglin von Schönegg, 1374.

Erik

[Otto von Aachen]

Ok Erik, for now i guess i can accept that they are internal splints, though i'd still like to find an extant armharness of that style and look inside it to make sure

As for copying that particular effigy, your right, its been an interesting project for Cet(hes making the plate portion of the armour) and for me as well(im sewing all the clothing, making the helm liner, etc). Cet's finishing up the legharness right now, and that only leaves the sabatons and that crazy breastplate/torso defense to figure out.

[Erik Schmidt]

Ok Erik, for now i guess i can accept that they are internal splints, though i'd still like to find an extant armharness of that style and look inside it to make sure

As for copying that particular effigy, your right, its been an interesting project for Cet(hes making the plate portion of the armour) and for me as well(im sewing all the clothing, making the helm liner, etc). Cet's finishing up the legharness right now, and that only leaves the sabatons and that crazy breastplate/torso defense to figure out.

Yeah, I would also like to see extant examples of such types of armour. The only surviving splint armour from the 14th century that I recall, is that from the Tana find, which contained the remains of an internally splinted cuisse and partly splinted poleyn.
It's always good to be sceptical of current theory or opinion. There are some examples in artwork which show the outlines of some kind of splint backing where the studs are shown and the Tana find backs up the theory that internally splinted cuisses were used.
The theory that internal splints back the studs seen on arm armour therefore has some good evidence to back it, as well as being very logical from the perspective of protective value.

I look forward to seeing the finished product. How are the splint greaves being done?

Erik

[Otto von Aachen]

Well, the mock up Cet sent me to check the fit had the greaves as three seperate pieces, designed to be connected with leather straps that buckled across the back of the calf. Last time we talked he indicated that he was going to make some slight changes in terms of how the cuisses, polyens and greaves were going to articulate to each other, so at this point im not positive exactly how hes going to set up the finished version. I know from his previous work that it's going to be a very close to whats shown in the effigy and should be up to LH standards, but since hes the armourer i let him work out the construction details.

[Erik Schmidt]

I like the sound of that Otto.
I don't recall having seen anyone else make a set of the Germanic triple splinted greaves. The construction sounds like the way I had interpreted them to have been made.

I personally don't think there was a direct articulation(link) between the poleyn and greaves, but only that the former overlaps the latter. This may well be how Cet is going to do them.

It will be interesting to see the end product.

Erik

[SirJeremy]

James,

In the book that Clermont mentioned, Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight (Edge and Paddock) if you look at page 77 there is "composite armour of a Vogt of Match, in Schloss Churburg, North Italian, c.1390." Though there isn't a lower part of the harness shown, but the upper part does look very close to what Valentine has posted on his site....I know that doesn't help much, but at least its a start.

Jeremy