Blackning with propane torch

Ashfield · Post by **Ashfield** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:50 am

Would it work if i would use a Bernzomatic propane torch for blackning an armour , since i cant use a over n i m not sure the BBQ would be a good idea and , i dont have a flame thrower like Halberd do.

Yalp??

Edward de la Pole · Post by **Edward de la Pole** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:25 am

Yes. The benzomatic actually works better than the straight propane torch which doesn't burn quite as hot.

I would use the torch before I used the oven or BBQ anyway. It is simple and fast.

GodfryWarinsin · Post by **GodfryWarinsin** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:26 pm

I just blackened a peice this weekend over a campfire and it worked really well. I let the peice set in used motor oil for about 2 days and then when I had about 6 inches of good hot coals I put the peices in and buried them in to the coals for about 4 minutes and then draged them out and they look great. I judged the time by how they looked (this is where experience would have come into play, but this was my first attempt. got pretty lucky though).
There was a little bit of rust on them that I thought I had gotten off before hand but apparently did not and it looks as if the rust just enamalized. I don't know how well this will hold up against further rusting in the future.

I know a campfire and a benzomatic are worlds apart but I'm in the same situation without an oven or grill to blacken in, but if you know your going to be going to a camping event, then that might be a good time to try it. You could even make a demo out of it if you were so inclined.

Brian de Lorne · Post by **Brian de Lorne** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:47 pm

How exactly do you blacken it with a torch? From what I'm reading, I guess you soak it in motor oil (particular weight) for a few days, then pull it out and just run the torch over it till it blackens? Can you do it on mild and stainless? Not to hijack the thread, just curious!

Thanks!

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:11 pm

Hal has a flamethrower????
Why am I not too surprised.....

You can blacken with a propane torch by dipping in/ or painting regular motor oil on. Ive never had a preference between 30 weight and 40 weight.. hahaa. I just use whats laying around.
You can also do a really pretty blue by spraying with wd-40 instead.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:13 pm

What is the point of soaking the mail in the oil for a few days? It isn't going to "soak in".

Lord Vanguard · Post by **Lord Vanguard** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:17 pm

* WARNING * Very dumb question below!!!

Is it possible to blacken aluminium that way? I guess I'd have to get all the oxide off before if I want the black to stay on?

Ashfield · Post by **Ashfield** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:06 pm

As I now you burn it with the torch and put it in oil , how much time in these 2 step , i dont know.

Ashfield · Post by **Ashfield** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:13 pm

I know there are 2 torch i can use this one
: [img]http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomatic/consumer/images/products/UL100_sm.jpg[/img]

and this one with oxygen :
[img]http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomatic/consumer/images/products/OX2550KC_sm.jpg[/img]

Ive got the 2 , which one would be the best
i think its the first one cause the second is used to cut metal too...:s

Cad's Apprentice · Post by **Cad's Apprentice** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:50 pm

Lord Vanguard wrote:* WARNING * Very dumb question below!!!

Is it possible to blacken aluminium that way? I guess I'd have to get all the oxide off before if I want the black to stay on?

Not a dumb question at all. The answer is; I doubt it. As I understand it you can only anodize aluminum. I think that heating it will create a color of some sort but since it oxidizes differently than ferrous metals I don't think you'll get a black color.

Cad's Apprentice · Post by **Cad's Apprentice** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:54 pm

Lord Vanguard wrote:* WARNING * Very dumb question below!!!

Is it possible to blacken aluminium that way? I guess I'd have to get all the oxide off before if I want the black to stay on?

Not a dumb question at all. The answer is; I doubt it. As I understand it you can only anodize aluminum. I think that heating it will create a color of some sort but since it oxidizes differently than ferrous metals I don't think you'll get a black color.

GodfryWarinsin · Post by **GodfryWarinsin** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:16 pm

The reason I soaked it for a couple of days is because I ran out of time to get the fire going and had to wait a couple of days. I don't know that leaving it in for that long did anything more to it. As I said this was my first attempt so I don't know how you actually need to leave it in. And yes, when oil is applied to mild steal it will absorb somewhat into the surface and from what I've read here on the archive, you can effect the color by using new unused oil to create a brownish look or for a darker color used motor oil should work. I used used motor oil but I'm not sure if by using new motor oil will work using the campfire method. I'll post some pics as soon as I can.

Lord Vanguard · Post by **Lord Vanguard** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:16 pm

Not a dumb question at all. The answer is; I doubt it. As I understand it you can only anodize aluminum. I think that heating it will create a color of some sort but since it oxidizes differently than ferrous metals I don't think you'll get a black color.

Oh sorry I should have been more specific! I was talking about burning oil on aluminium (the "real" blackening). Would the black layer from the burned oil stay on it like it does on steel?

Justin Andrews · Post by **Justin Andrews** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:24 pm

I can give it as try sometime and report. I've got a lot of aluminium scraps, engine oils and a oxy/mapp and propane torches.

I'll play with the setup and see what happens. I've not come across any mention of colouring aluminium with this method, I think the oxide layer will be a problem, but won't hurt to play.

Justin

Lord Vanguard · Post by **Lord Vanguard** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:33 pm

I think the oxide layer will be a problem, but won't hurt to play.

Well, if you use a wire wheel to remove the oxide just before the blackening process, the black layer would be directly on the metal, right?

But fingerprints could be a problem too. What about using degreaser to clean the piece? Heck, that thing can dissolve paint so fingerprints should go away.

Well there's not a zillion way to know if it works so I think I'll try it tomorrow when I get back from work (4 pm). My propane torch is a bit underpowered but I think it'll do the job. I'll report back after the test.

Ashfield · Post by **Ashfield** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:40 pm

HELLO?!? he I mean :bump:

Sasuke · Post by **Sasuke** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:12 pm

Lord Vanguard wrote:* WARNING * Very dumb question below!!!

Is it possible to blacken aluminium that way? I guess I'd have to get all the oxide off before if I want the black to stay on?

I tried it once but ran into the problem of the Aluminium melting/getting saggy before the oil got to the burned/blackened stage. May just be the way I did it though.

Chris

Edward de la Pole · Post by **Edward de la Pole** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:56 pm

Aluminum will vaporize at fairly low temps. You cannot blacken Stainless either... it turns a yellowy color.

The way I've always blackend (blued) steel is to heat it up to the point where it starts to turn blue. Keep the torch moving evenly so you don't overheat any particular part of the piece. Once it is all blued (blackend) let it cool a little (not too much) and coat it in oil... outside because it smokes like a mother.

This is the way I learned to do such things.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:21 am

I guess I will add my 2 denar to the topic.

This the heat source I use to heat blue:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... bluing.jpg
A propane weed burner; I affectionately call my flame thrower, because that is precisely what it does.

This is some of the results:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... angens.jpg
Incidentally, the spangen on the left is the first one from apprentice #2.

I do not like to cook motor oil or any oil during the heating. After many test this method produced a black glaze that looked nice but cracked right off when the metal was flexed.
ie; struck with a stick.

The metal must be clean and finished before heating. Watch the blue appear and stop heating, it will get a tad darker as it soaks the heat up.
Let it cool and do not get any fingerprints on it.
Now apply some 3-in-1 or sewing machine oil to seal the blue.
Now you can touch it.
Also some paste car wax will help seal it after the first oiling and a wipe down.

Yes it will scratch off but it will not flake off.

Ashfield,

Yes one can use the small propane torch if the pieces are small. Like the un-assembled spaulders or spangen panels. It is best to make a brick back wall and sides to contain the heat. Go slow and heat the entire piece evenly, the blue will happen rather quickly. Do not keep heating it after the color is achieved or it will turn brown. You may find you will have to chase the blue out to the edges with such a small torch.

I would suggest you finish a scrap piece of steel and experiment with the procedure.

Best of luck on your quest and be safe.

Hal

Ashfield · Post by **Ashfield** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:05 am

Thanks you !

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:17 am

You cannot blacken Stainless either... it turns a yellowy color.

You can get some amazing purples out of it though.. that can be a stone b!tch to buff out later.

Maeryk

chaine_maile · Post by **chaine_maile** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:18 am

Caustic bluing salts will blacken stainless. Just takes a little longer with a little higher temps.

I still don't see why EVERYONE blackens metal with this heating meathod. If your tempering the metal into the blue-grey phase, your removing all your hardness.

To test this take a piece of steel, heat it till a magnet won't stick, then quench it in water. Now try and file it. Take the metal, buff it then heat it with a torch till it turns yellow. Now try and file it. Continue this through all the colors till you reach grey. At grey heat the steel will be as soft as it will get without prolonged annealing.

Granted, some stainless steels can't be hardened by heat treating. They don't have the crystaline structure for it. However, they are hardened by the working of the metal. Heating them incorrectly can allow the metal to relieve the stress of work hardening, and become soft.

If the metal loses some of its work hardening, what happens? It becomes EASIER to crease in combat. I would tend to shy away for these fire-bluing or burn-in meathods of coloring steel. Atleast in armour anyway.

Edward de la Pole · Post by **Edward de la Pole** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:47 am

chaine_maile wrote:I still don't see why EVERYONE blackens metal with this heating meathod. If your tempering the metal into the blue-grey phase, your removing all your hardness.

You never get it hot enough to remove the hardness. You are just heating it up enough to give it the color, it should never even get red.

I don't know about the "campfire boys" or the "grillers", but with a torch you are just getting it blue... nothing more.

Edward de la Pole · Post by **Edward de la Pole** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:49 am

Maeryk wrote:
You cannot blacken Stainless either... it turns a yellowy color.

You can get some amazing purples out of it though.. that can be a stone b!tch to buff out later.

We built a great helm for a friend of mine and used stainless perf in the eye openings and blued the helm... he looked like something out of Japanese anime..... :shock:

Beautiful blue helm with these yellow "fly eyes"

freaky... he loved it

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:37 pm

A propane weed burner; I affectionately call my flame thrower, because that is precisely what it does.

And if you want one, they are in the most recent harbor freight catalog...

Item 91033-0bma 24.99

-+G

Ashfield · Post by **Ashfield** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:40 pm

thx everyone i'l give it a try with my simple propane torch in the parking and we well see...

Johann ColdIron · Post by **Johann ColdIron** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:39 pm

Halberds wrote: some paste car wax will help seal it after the first oiling and a wipe down.

You can also use black shoe polish (Kiwi brand or equiv) to help even out finish. Dries dark so it is less of a hassle than paste wax. I keep one of the tins in my armor kit with a small square of towel in the tin.

Lord Vanguard · Post by **Lord Vanguard** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:39 pm

I tested the oil blackening process on aluminium tonight, and it just does not work ( at least for me ). The aluminium melts before getting to the right temperature, so no black layer is formed.

Too bad :cry:

Garreth · Post by **Garreth** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:19 pm

I have a MUCH easier process for you. I have used it with great results, many times. Clean and degrease the piece, as you would for any blueing treatment. Put the piece in yor oven and set for, IIRC, 550 degrees. I cannot remember how long it takes, but watch it until it turns dark blue. Take it out and let it air dry. I used thin oil to shine it up, but car wax might work. The surface is quite tough, and any surface rust can be taken care of with WD-40 and 0000 steel wool, without damaging the blueing. The blue color is dark and deep, with some subtle purple in it. It looks cool and it's really easy to do. Give it a try.

RalphS · Post by **RalphS** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:06 am

Just a few random remarks on the subject.

Blackening can be done in a variety of ways, the ones coming up here seem to be:
1) heating the clean iron/steel until the surface gets a dark blue oxide layer. This can be done chemically too.
2) heating the metal covered with oil, until the oil turns black and sticks to the surface.

Motor oil is specifially designed not to turn black and stick to metal, it's not the kind of thing you want to happen in your engine, is it? Use an organic oil instead. Linseed, olive, just about anything pressed from living things will work better then motor oil.

For method 1) the surface has to be clean, and it should be able to oxydise. Stainless works, but you may have to heat it to red heat before it changes colour. Method 2) works for anything to which oil will stick, and keep its consistency at the heat needed to burn the oil.

Best result for method 2) are obtained if you first heat the iron/steel to red heat, brush off any loose scale, and cover in (linseed) oil until it sticks. This way, you have a rough firescale surface to which the burnt oil will stick very effectively.

Ashfield · Post by **Ashfield** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:32 pm

Succesfull !!!!!
It worked really fine , it make a nice blue ,
thx everybody

Garreth · Post by **Garreth** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:21 pm

Alexandre,
Which method did you use? Glad to hear it was a sucess!

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:21 pm

You people are GODS!
I have tried every method of blackening that I came across and nothing worked. At the very least my steel was nice and oily.

I would kill to get my steel to blacken!!
(^_^)

Ashfield · Post by **Ashfield** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:55 pm

pretty pretty pretty easy :

1: start the torch with a lighter ( torch kit cost about 7$ and gas bottle 2$)

2: take you piece in a vise grip or anything that can hold it , ( your hand if it big egnof)

3:and after 8 sec at the same spot you start seeing you metal getting blue

4: one it start getting blue, your metal is so hot that it wont take more that a sec. to blue the next inch ,

5: have fun !

---------------------------------------------------------------------

What I learned :

1: Go away from the wind , it dosnt help cause the flame always disapear

2: Its hot ! :!:

3: Rust CAN appear after your metal blued

4: it better to clean you metal, and for better result polish it mirror

5: Im kinda disapointed cause I thank it would be darker than that

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I didnt learn :

1: I didnt used oil , but whats the use of it , soak in it while the pieces hot , use it after , before ? What kind if yes , the best or cheapest ?

RalphS · Post by **RalphS** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:11 am

Ashfield wrote:3: Rust CAN appear after your metal blued
1: I didnt used oil , but whats the use of it , soak in it while the pieces hot , use it after , before ? What kind if yes , the best or cheapest ?

Oil prevents rust, perhaps not that surprising...
On blued pieces I've used a light oil (ballistol, for those who recognise the brand), after the piece has cooled down. Works OK, but does require some maintenance if people have drooled on the piece.

To get as deep a colour as possible:
* do not heat too much, or the metal will turn lighter blue
* if you can, keep the piece at the right temperature for a longer time. I usually put my pieces in the oven, for at least an hour, preferably overnight. This helps too in getting a more even colour
* oil!